S4 product recommendation

[Dsauro]

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2 hours ago, helged said:

Its hard to believe it will happen. But Leica has surprised before... 

 

[ZHNL]

3 hours ago, helged said:

Its hard to believe it will happen. But Leica has surprised before... 

They have to! A perfect niche product can ride on SL tech. Why not

 

[Stuart Richardson]

The picture definitely looks like an medium format mount, as does the cutout for the sensor. I think this is a very logical direction for Leica to go, if they wish to continue the S mount at all. The reason being that it would make the camera so much more accessible. One big challenge Leica has right now is that the S line is very expensive, and the S lenses are extremely expensive (new at least), while the lens line and accessories (especially flash) is really small compared to other professional lines like the GFX cameras. A mirrorless body would allow for so many more lenses to be used. Not just medium format SLR lenses (all of which are getting on in years, and not as able to maximize the resolution we have available today), but potentially lenses from other formats. The biggest revolution would be to be able to use L mount lenses natively. This would make the S a much more accessible professional system. Just like the SL can shoot TL lenses and give a 20mp file, an S mirrorless could use L mount lenses to give a high resolution full frame "crop" mode. This would mean that the S mirrorless could be one camera that could mount everything from S lenses to M lenses to EF lenses, all with native or near native support and AF.  It would also make it much easier to use on view camera bodies or with technical camera setups, and perhaps Sinar could add some support. The PMFL never made too much sense with a big mirror box making wide angle lenses impossible and mirror slap causing vibrations all throughout the system. 

You could have your current S lenses with an adapter that would support them natively, and allow their beautiful look and character for MF pictures and video, but if you needed to use a long telephoto for some reason, you would have access to the 90-280SL lens, let alone all the other Sigma and Panasonic lenses that take you from ultra wide to super telephoto. This would also open it up to much faster lenses, as well. With a higher resolution MF sensor (say the one in the M11, which might be up to 80-100mp on MF), you would still have 47-60mp on full frame. That would certainly be a camera that I would pay for, especially if they finally add Profoto support as well.

The question is whether Leica would do it, as it would likely imply a new line of lenses too, and it seems like they have their hands full making the Q, M and L cameras and lenses already.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[BernardC]

If they do support L-mount lenses (via an adapter that fits inside the lens throat, I suppose), I hope they implement a native "portrait mode". This would probably be cropped to 30x24mm, but that's OK. 5x4 proportions work fine for portraits.

My other wish is for a battery that's at-least as useful as the current S battery.

[ZHNL]

6 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The picture definitely looks like an medium format mount, as does the cutout for the sensor. I think this is a very logical direction for Leica to go, if they wish to continue the S mount at all. The reason being that it would make the camera so much more accessible. One big challenge Leica has right now is that the S line is very expensive, and the S lenses are extremely expensive (new at least), while the lens line and accessories (especially flash) is really small compared to other professional lines like the GFX cameras. A mirrorless body would allow for so many more lenses to be used. Not just medium format SLR lenses (all of which are getting on in years, and not as able to maximize the resolution we have available today), but potentially lenses from other formats. The biggest revolution would be to be able to use L mount lenses natively. This would make the S a much more accessible professional system. Just like the SL can shoot TL lenses and give a 20mp file, an S mirrorless could use L mount lenses to give a high resolution full frame "crop" mode. This would mean that the S mirrorless could be one camera that could mount everything from S lenses to M lenses to EF lenses, all with native or near native support and AF.  It would also make it much easier to use on view camera bodies or with technical camera setups, and perhaps Sinar could add some support. The PMFL never made too much sense with a big mirror box making wide angle lenses impossible and mirror slap causing vibrations all throughout the system. 

You could have your current S lenses with an adapter that would support them natively, and allow their beautiful look and character for MF pictures and video, but if you needed to use a long telephoto for some reason, you would have access to the 90-280SL lens, let alone all the other Sigma and Panasonic lenses that take you from ultra wide to super telephoto. This would also open it up to much faster lenses, as well. With a higher resolution MF sensor (say the one in the M11, which might be up to 80-100mp on MF), you would still have 47-60mp on full frame. That would certainly be a camera that I would pay for, especially if they finally add Profoto support as well.

The question is whether Leica would do it, as it would likely imply a new line of lenses too, and it seems like they have their hands full making the Q, M and L cameras and lenses already.

I'd love to have it accept SL lens but doubt it will happen due to mount size and flange distance. It would be nice if it can accept M lens and I really hope it can add Hasselblad H and Contax645 native support like S does. (SL doesnt) Plus center shutter support. 

One big feature to look for is multi-resolution mode like M11. Assume it will use 100M 44X33 sensor. One more big feature is IBIS. It will be a dream camera for me if every above boxes checked.  

[helged]

53 minutes ago, ZHNL said:

I'd love to have it accept SL lens but doubt it will happen due to mount size and flange distance. It would be nice if it can accept M lens and I really hope it can add Hasselblad H and Contax645 native support like S does. (SL doesnt) Plus center shutter support. 

One big feature to look for is multi-resolution mode like M11. Assume it will use 100M 44X33 sensor. One more big feature is IBIS. It will be a dream camera for me if every above boxes checked.  

A mirrorless S needs IBIS; IBIS with a 44x33 sensor is possible (=available), but harder with a Leica-specific 45x30 sensor (not available  as far as I know). If so, Leica has to divert from the 2-by-3 form factor, which will involve deep considerations in Wetzlar. I think. 

[ZHNL]

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24 minutes ago, helged said:

A mirrorless S needs IBIS; IBIS with a 44x33 sensor is possible (=available), but harder with a Leica-specific 45x30 sensor (not available  as far as I know). If so, Leica has to divert from the 2-by-3 form factor, which will involve deep considerations in Wetzlar. I think. 

Yes, I think 4X3 ratio is the one commercially available. I believe most MF users prefer this ratio than 3X2 due to historic reason. The fact that S glass will cover this sensor easily will make the transition smoothly.  

This is just a speculation I think at this point. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, I would much rather a 4:3 sensor (better yet, 4:5), but I think Helge is right that that would be a strong consideration for Leica, as it would be a departure from the other S cameras and their own historical format. I am not totally sure on not having L mount, however. The question is could Leica design the new S lenses to have an L mount. It is smaller than the current S mount, but it would depend on if they could get enough image circle with a normal L mount. I guess that is more of a question for an engineer. Or it could of course be slightly closer than the L mount, and use an adapter to mount L mount lenses. Since it is a new design they would have more freedom in that sense. I am not sure how much of an optical price there would be to pay for these changes, however.

 

I am not sure there is really much point in doing it if it can't mount the L mount lenses. I cannot see Leica doing an entirely new S lens line, given how slow of a seller and how small the market penetration has been for the S cameras. I think MAYBE they might do a new wide, standard lens and portrait lens, but I don't see a new set of lenses like they have in the current S. Even that took six years to get them all out. If this new S is going to make sense in the market, I think they are going to have to make it appeal to a larger group of photographers. The easiest target is the existing L mount customers...even M mount customers. As well as some people coming from L mount video cameras that might want a MF look or just the ability to use the S lenses natively. In this sense, you could basically combine the SL2 (high res version) and S3 into one camera...have the high resolution version of the SL be a medium format sensor, and have the less expensive SL2S version remain a 35mm sensor with a 24 to 36mp resolution.

Edited May 4, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[darkdays]

My main reason for not having the S system on my digital MF shortlist has been the aspect ratio and mirror. If a mirrorless S-system gives us 4:3, 4:5, or better yet 1:1 (a boy can dream!), I'd put a pre-order on it today!

I believe a mirrorless S system would require a completely new set of lenses, right? In any case, it should be able to accept pretty much all SLR lenses including current S-mount as long as adapters are available, and probably rangefinder lenses as well. SL lenses might be problematic due to the aforementioned flange distance being tighter on the small mirrorless format.

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Yes, I think 4X3 ratio is the one commercially available. I believe most MF users prefer this ratio than 3X2 due to historic reason.

6x6 and 6x9 are the two most popular historical formats for 120 film, but other lengths were available.

Of the two formats, 6x9 was the amateur format and was generally contact printed. 6x6 was made popular by Rolleiflex, starting pre-WWII, and Hasselblad post-war.

Other formats with 4x5 proportions became popular in the 1970s and 80s: 6x4.5, 6x7. These allowed higher frame counts and lower bulk compared to 6x6 and 6x9.

I'm mostly talking about 120 film here. The 620 "Box Brownie" format outsold them by an order of magnitude, but it disappeared once 35mm cameras and film were good enough for home use.

[Pieter12]

13 hours ago, darkdays said:

My main reason for not having the S system on my digital MF shortlist has been the aspect ratio and mirror. If a mirrorless S-system gives us 4:3, 4:5, or better yet 1:1 (a boy can dream!), I'd put a pre-order on it today!

My main reason for the S is the mirror. I have a strong preference for an optical viewfinder, be it reflex or rangefinder. And I can crop to whatever ratio the image demands. Most of my images end up square, no matter the original format.

[tom0511]

Hasselblad continues to support both, SLR and a less expensive mirrorless MF system.

Fuji directly entered into mirrorless MF.

I am a little bit afraid that Leica might switch from SLR to mirrorless MF and give up SLR.(just my feeling).

I wouldn't mind a mirrorless MF Leica, but I am afraid how good will the DSLR-S-lenses work on a mirrorless camera body? They are very slow on a SL.

Will they be replaced with new lenses optimized for mirrorless? Would my S lenses, just after 10 years, be part of a dead system? I hope not. I hope - if they bring a mirrorless S-body, they will design it so that the old lenses will work well on it.

Edited May 5, 2022 by tom0511

[Stuart Richardson]

I think the chances that there will be another S with a mirror are very low. The S3 was basically a sensor upgrade of the S007, which was minor body change to a camera that came out in 2008. The last new lens was in 2014. Given how few S3 cameras have sold, it seems extremely unlikely that they would continue in that direction. The design of the lens system (using a screw drive AF system) and the design of the body would need a lot of updates to bring them up to date (having more accurate, multiple point AF, having ports fast enough for high res video output, having USBC ports for tethering and charging, instead of strange lemo connectors with adapters, building in wifi etc). I just don't think Leica will invest in the system to do it, unless they convert it into a mirrorless system. I like OVF's a lot too, but the market seems to be moving away from them at a very high speed. I would be curious to know how many Hasselblad DSLR's are sold these days, because my guess it is very few. Phase One seems super dominant in the MFDB market, and both Phase One and Hasselblad seem to have been battered by Fuji's GFX line which has offered so much performance for the money that the use case of Phase One and Hasselblad SLR's has narrowed considerably since their heyday. If the S3 had been popular and sold a ton of units, then maybe would continue down that path, but I think that is the least likely outcome. At least to my eyes, the most likely outcome is that the S3 is the last S period, but the next most likely outcome would be that there is a mirrorless S, or some way to merge the S and L lines. 

[HuntingSand]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Stuart Richardson:

Given how few S3 cameras have sold,

Were produced in the first place I would submit. I know the number, and it's not a four digit one. The S line of lenses has come to an end, as suspected some time ago.

[Jeff S]

If there is a mirrorless S, it will be interesting to see the price point, especially if Leica intends it to reach a broader audience. When the S2 and S006 arrived, Pentax, Fuji and Hasselblad had yet to significantly undercut the price of entry to digital MF (over $20k for the S, versus about $10k eventually for the Pentax, followed by Hassy and Fuji).  The M system has withstood significant price rises in that time frame, but that's a unique customer base.  I would anticipate that if there is a mirrorless S, Leica will find ways to create economies with the SL system, and/or as they do now, by sharing sensor architecture with the M system (S007/M240 and S3/M10-R/M10M).

Most importantly, we would get to see a new bunch of bag threads.

Jeff

[Jon Warwick]

On 5/4/2022 at 8:33 PM, helged said:

A mirrorless S needs IBIS; IBIS with a 44x33 sensor is possible (=available), but harder with a Leica-specific 45x30 sensor (not available  as far as I know). If so, Leica has to divert from the 2-by-3 form factor, which will involve deep considerations in Wetzlar. I think. 

Anyone know the reason for the 2-by-3 form factor on the S line? I don’t, but rather than aesthetic choice for the image format, is it possibly to help reduce the bulk of the mirror to keep the overall size of the S body fairly reasonable?

FWIW, I’d rather see a 44x33 format because it dovetails closer to the way I’ve historically framed with 6x7 and 4x5, but that’s just me.

As a GFX100S user, I expect I would be very interested in a mirrorless medium format camera if Leica ever produced one. And if replicated into a bigger format, some of the aspects of the SL2 that I previously owned (SL lens rendering; in-camera integration of high resolution multi-shot mode with a mode that strips out movement “issues”) are things that I preferred in the SL2 over the Fuji. 

[tom0511]

What I think is kind of sad is that Leica, with the S system came up with a very innovative product, which at this time was unique (compact highquality fast MF-DSLR, great lenses with both shutter types etc) but then over the years, falls behind the competition because they just do not really continue to improve the next generations.

Had the S3 an improved AF, and would Leica communicate that they continue the system (or would they communicate that current S lenses will work very well on a future mirrorless S camera) I would own a S3 for a long time. But should I pay another 15k Dollar into a system, which might be dead in one year? We had this with the R, then with the TL/CL system, now with the S (eventually-I hope not, I hope a mirrorless body will work well with the "old" S lenses).

And if I see how Canon and Nikon moving forward with their FF mirrorless (late, but now fast) - I hope Leica will catch up again with the SL3 next year (or whenever), to avoid the same thing - bringing an innovative product (FF pro built camera) and then fall behind the competition again after just few years.

I write this because I really like Leica and use many of their cameras and systems.

Edited May 6, 2022 by tom0511

[jplomley]

5 hours ago, tom0511 said:

What I think is kind of sad is that Leica, with the S system came up with a very innovative product, which at this time was unique (compact highquality fast MF-DSLR, great lenses with both shutter types etc) but then over the years, falls behind the competition because they just do not really continue to improve the next generations.

Had the S3 an improved AF, and would Leica communicate that they continue the system (or would they communicate that current S lenses will work very well on a future mirrorless S camera) I would own a S3 for a long time. But should I pay another 15k Dollar into a system, which might be dead in one year? We had this with the R, then with the TL/CL system, now with the S (eventually-I hope not, I hope a mirrorless body will work well with the "old" S lenses).

And if I see how Canon and Nikon moving forward with their FF mirrorless (late, but now fast) - I hope Leica will catch up again with the SL3 next year (or whenever), to avoid the same thing - bringing an innovative product (FF pro built camera) and then fall behind the competition again after just few years.

I write this because I really like Leica and use many of their cameras and systems.

The only product worth considering a long term "investment" with Leica is the M product line. Everything else they have introduced is a secondary afterthought with very little commitment. Just look at the extremely slow roll out of SL glass. We still do not have the promised wide angle L APO SC's promised some four years ago. This is another reason they loose their competitive edge. No strategic planning whatsoever. 

[Jeff S]

5 hours ago, tom0511 said:

What I think is kind of sad is that Leica, with the S system came up with a very innovative product, which at this time was unique (compact highquality fast MF-DSLR, great lenses with both shutter types etc) but then over the years, falls behind the competition because they just do not really continue to improve the next generations.

 

Innovative at the time… and about $25k for body only.  Then Pentax entered the market at around $10k, followed by competition from Fuji and Hasselblad. Whole new market setting.  Did you expect the S to thrive, even with updates?  Imagine if Leica hadn’t reduced prices a bit, creating economies by sharing sensor architecture with the M system.

Jeff

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[tom0511]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Jeff S:

Innovative at the time… and about $25k for body only.  Then Pentax entered the market at around $10k, followed by competition from Fuji and Hasselblad. Whole new market setting.  Did you expect the S to thrive, even with updates?  Imagine if Leica hadn’t reduced prices a bit, creating economies by sharing sensor architecture with the M system.

Jeff

Well, prices have never been the reason to buy a Leica. The S2 was so much nicer than the Pentax, and Leica even developped a very complete line of excellent lenses. I believe the S007 (which I own and like) was the point of time where they should have brought more innovations into the camera.

I still prefer the S over the Fuji and the x1d-system. But if I did not already own the lenses then it would be hard to justify. I am kind of happy to see (if the rumour is true) thatsomething is coming.