S4 product recommendation

[BernardC]

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

At least to me, the million dollar question is how big a sensor the L mount will support.

I don't think it can support anything bigger than 24x36mm. There isn't really any space to make the sensor bigger, once you take into account electronic contacts.

The alternative was hinted-at by a "leaked" illustration: a new bigger lens mount that accepts an L-Mount adapter. That way you get compatibility in one direction (L-Mount lenses on MF body), but not in the other (MF lenses on L-Mount).

[Jon Warwick]

Just looking at the SL2, the sensor certainly does look snugly fitting already within its L lens mount. BernardC’s comment about a possible L-to-medium format adapter is interesting. I don’t know how that would be feasible in terms of flange distance away from the sensor, but I’m clueless on this stuff!

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[Stuart Richardson]

The new lenses would just need to have a shorter flange to focal distance than the L mount, and then they would fit. But the L mount is already pretty close...I guess it all depends on the lens designs.

Bernard, can you post a link to that diagram? That is not something I have seen.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The new lenses would just need to have a shorter flange to focal distance than the L mount, and then they would fit. But the L mount is already pretty close...I guess it all depends on the lens designs.

Bernard, can you post a link to that diagram? That is not something I have seen.

It was here:

https://leicarumors.com/2022/05/02/is-this-a-leica-s-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-mock-up.aspx/

Note that the lens contacts seem to be on the bottom of the mount, whereas they are one the top for L-Mount. You can imagine an L-Mount adapter that sits flush inside this mount.

It's just a mock-up in the background, so there's no way to tell if it's something that they are actually pursuing.

[da_eltsch]

I would love to add some wishful thinking 🙃: the S4 comes out as - "best of two worlds" - a DSLR with non-moving mirror / pellicle mirror (like Canon RT, Canon EOS-1N RS etc.), but relies on modern AF-chips (on-sensor) like all the DSLMs are using today. This way the great optical viewfinder could still be available in the S4 and at the same time there is the new tech available used in Mirrorless-Systems and the S-Lenses could work seamlessly.  (I have no idea what this would mean on development efforts and license fees etc.)

Best,
Helge

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by da_eltsch

[Jeff S]

6 hours ago, da_eltsch said:

 This way the great optical viewfinder could still be available in the S4 and at the same time there is the new tech available used in Mirrorless-Systems and the S-Lenses could work seamlessly.  

 

But a major disadvantage of the split light beam was reduced VF brightness, now a key attribute of the S OVF. The feature never caught on.  But one can wish… and technology moves on in ways we can’t predict.

Jeff

[Pieter12]

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10 hours ago, da_eltsch said:

I would love to add some wishful thinking 🙃: the S4 comes out as - "best of two worlds" - a DSLR with non-moving mirror / pellicle mirror (like Canon RT, Canon EOS-1N RS etc.), but relies on modern AF-chips (on-sensor) like all the DSLMs are using today. This way the great optical viewfinder could still be available in the S4 and at the same time there is the new tech available used in Mirrorless-Systems and the S-Lenses could work seamlessly.  (I have no idea what this would mean on development efforts and license fees etc.)

Best,
Helge

 

Not sure why a fixed mirror would enable any of the "new tech."

[da_eltsch]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

Not sure why a fixed mirror would enable any of the "new tech."

Idea is that a „semi-transparent“ mirror would allow to have the light on the sensor (for continuous autofocus etc.) and in the optical viewfinder simultaneously. See Canon RT for the setup and combine that with the tech used today for af -control etc.
 

Jeff‘s point definitely applies: in low light that would reduce the brightness of the viewfinder to some extent.

[Pieter12]

11 hours ago, da_eltsch said:

Idea is that a „semi-transparent“ mirror would allow to have the light on the sensor (for continuous autofocus etc.) and in the optical viewfinder simultaneously. See Canon RT for the setup and combine that with the tech used today for af -control etc.
 

Jeff‘s point definitely applies: in low light that would reduce the brightness of the viewfinder to some extent.

This I know. But how would that enable the use of any "new tech" --if it would fit such a body, couldn't it just as well be incorporated into a traditional moving mirror camera. Less complex mechanism, leaving more room? It's a big camera already, I don't think anyone would think the sacrifice would justify the downside of a pellicle mirror.

[Stuart Richardson]

Leica does not seem to like to do these kinds of hybrid measures. They have specifically stated that they did not think a hybrid viewfinder like in the X100 series would be good enough for the M cameras. I suspect that if they did, the Q would have featured such a technology. I would suspect the same with the S. I think it will be one or the other...either a full EVF or a full OVF. I strongly suspect it will be mirrorless, as I think the OVF already stretches the limits of the possible with the S3...the slightest misalignment or grinding inconsistency of the focusing screen and maintaining sharpness and accuracy is impossible with fast lenses like the 100mm f2 and 120mm 2.5. I never found that my S cameras were truly accurate enough with the focusing screens, and I had trouble achieving consistent MF results, and often the focusing screen and built in microprism/split rangefinder screen was not in agreement with the focusing confirmation lights. It was quite close, but not 100%. I am sure some had better luck than me, but I had issues with the S2, S006 and S3. In talking to Leica, they stressed that the tolerance was in spec and that the AF system was more accurate than the screens. Because of this, I only tended to use the MF to focus on things like point light sources at night and to use as a viewfinder.

Just from a business standpoint, I think an EVF is inevitable too, if they continue the line...the market has shifted dramatically towards EVF's, and they are easier to manufacture and maintain. Now that Leica has a large stake owned by private equity, one can expect to see them try to squeeze as much juice from the orange as possible (as we have seen with expansion into the rebranded TV market, watches, smartphones, 360 cameras etc), and I think replacing the complexity and high tolerances of an SLR with an EVF is a no-brainer from that standpoint.

[traveler11]

I remember the Canon Pellix.  It predated the FT and FTb.  They created fast lenses to compensate for the light loss - 1.2 and 1.4.  It was similar to many other SLRs of the time, with a spring loaded lever pushed to activate the behind-the-lens CDs meter utilizing the stop down method.  It didn't last, but the idea of a semitransparent mirror lived on.

[da_eltsch]

vor 18 Stunden schrieb Pieter12:

This I know. But how would that enable the use of any "new tech" --if it would fit such a body, couldn't it just as well be incorporated into a traditional moving mirror camera. Less complex mechanism, leaving more room? It's a big camera already, I don't think anyone would think the sacrifice would justify the downside of a pellicle mirror.

Well, traditional mirror would not let light through to the sensor during the time it is down. So sensor-based AF could not work the same time as you have the reflected image in the optical viewfinder.

And yes it would fit into the existing S body and reduce the mechanism by all moving parts.

but I agree with Stuart it is not going to happen. Let us hope for the best EVF by all criteria.

 

Best,

Helge

Edited September 7, 2022 by da_eltsch

[helged]

From June & known by many, but nevertheless (from https://gmpphoto.blogspot.com/2022/06/whats-really-new-about-m11-and-why.html?m=1&fbclid=IwAR1P87_sgZY4pqB74GDSwMcTE4QP3H_H9iXZvA51L9eEYOjGQGUGef9cg6s 😞

"A mirrorless S is actually a consequent evolution, and it's not that amazing that speculation is doing the rounds. Here's the fact: A mirrorless S is a work in progress, but it's difficult to predict anything further in the future. Today there are so many impasses with the procurement of materials, assemblies and electronic parts that we currently have no specific statement on the time of the next market launch of the S."

[robb]

Leica director today says- mirrorless S4 coming in 2025 so three years to go… I will look forward to the date and in the meantime look at S3.

Robb

[Stuart Richardson]

4 hours ago, robb said:

Leica director today says- mirrorless S4 coming in 2025 so three years to go… I will look forward to the date and in the meantime look at S3.

Robb

Where did they say that? Thanks!

[padam]

https://leicarumors.com/2022/10/19/extremely-interesting-comments-from-stefan-daniel-leica-mirrorless-medium-format-camera-m-camera-with-evf-and-more.aspx/

Seeing as it will be a completely new system, it might not actually be called an S4.

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, padam said:

Seeing as it will be a completely new system, it might not actually be called an S4

I wonder if we'll also get an S4 out of this. I guess it depends if the new sensor and electronics fit in the S body. Almost everything else can be carried over from the current body.

[sebben]

I recommend that it doesn't cost more than $10.000

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, sebben said:

I recommend that it doesn't cost more than $10.000

With the M11 already at 9000 USD, I think that is decidedly unlikely, especially given inflation and the fact that it is targeted for 2025. But I agree, it would certainly broaden the market if it were cheaper. It is certainly harder too with the S bodies having even more depreciation than cameras like the X, T and CL bodies. In many cases they are only 1/10th of their original value after six or seven years (albeit a long time in digital). The S bodies seemed to lose about 60 or 70% of their value when the next generation came out, whereas with an M it is maybe 20-30%...if that. Currently if you have 1800 dollars you could have an M8 or an S2. One a 10mp APS camera from 2006, the other a 37mp larger than full frame camera from 2008/9. Having owned both, the degree to which the S2 is better is pretty dramatic.

In any case, it is good news that they are working on something. My own fantasy, as I have probably expressed a few times across the threads here, is that the role of the SL2 is delegated to the S4. Give it something like 100mp or more in medium format, but also allow it to use the SL lenses natively, in the way that you can use the TL lenses on the SL. This would be an extremely compelling camera, as it would allow you to have medium format for the highest quality, but could also natively use 35mm lenses for applications such as telephoto or zoom work for which there is no S equivalent. It would also open up the camera to a much broader audience, since people would not need to buy several S lenses to begin with. It would be the ultimate system camera in that it would support all of the M lenses, all of the L mount lenses, all of the S lenses and presumably whatever new S lenses they come up with. Add in the upcoming profoto and godox flash integration and you wind up with a camera that can once again truly compete with the likes of Fuji, Hasselblad and Phase One for the higher end pro market.

Edited October 19, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

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[padam]

4 hours ago, BernardC said:

I wonder if we'll also get an S4 out of this. I guess it depends if the new sensor and electronics fit in the S body. Almost everything else can be carried over from the current body.

There is no reason to do that anymore. Everything that is developed around the new sensor (new processor, completely new AF system, IBIS, video features, etc.) would be wasted in a DSLR body, and they will want to sell their fancy new lenses as well. Even Canon and Nikon are completely leaving their old mounts, despite having a big user base.
Best users can hope for is an adapter that keeps full functionality of their existing S lenses (including CS), and breathing new life into them with the new AF system.

2 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Give it something like 100mp or more in medium format, but also allow it to use the SL lenses natively, in the way that you can use the TL lenses on the SL. This would be an extremely compelling camera, as it would allow you to have medium format for the highest quality, but could also natively use 35mm lenses for applications such as telephoto or zoom work for which there is no S equivalent. It would also open up the camera to a much broader audience, since people would not need to buy several S lenses to begin with. Add in the upcoming profoto and godox flash integration and you wind up with a camera that can once again truly compete with the likes of Fuji, Hasselblad and Phase One for the higher end pro market.

I highly doubt it will be interchangable. It will likely to become more like the Hasselblad system, e.g. designed around compact leaf shutter lenses and hopefully full compatibility with their old S system, so those might function as the cheaper entry to the system as unlike FF, they probably don't need to send and invitation to Panasonic and Sigma.
Basically, it is for people who are ready to spend way more on an even higher-end system than what the L-mount represents (where the SL3 will also move upmarket with new technology), and I imagine they would try to keep the size and weight in check.
Leica is already set up to be an exclusive brand (which suits lower volume sales that are happening anyway in the world of cameras) which they can take further.
They really don't need to appeal to a much broader audience, they just need to make it very good - which they probably will.