S4 product recommendation

[helged]

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35 minutes ago, prismstorm said:

2) the M is traditionally used much more in street / documentary settings, where things are shot at f/8 or above or hyperfocal is used, also making critical focus not as vital than the S, where really belongs in studios and on tripods

Traditionally yes, but somewhat in contradiction to Karbe's view: 

"It is part of our understanding of values that the lenses we deliver today are fully functional wide open. In this way, we offer the photographer every opportunity to make full use of the depth of field in his images – without compromise." 

From https://www.leica-camera.blog/2020/02/27/peter-karbe/.

[BernardC]

15 hours ago, prismstorm said:

Except that:

1) the M has a much smaller sensor, so depth of field is not as shallow and therefore focus is not as critical at any equivalent aperture; and 

2) the M is traditionally used much more in street / documentary settings, where things are shot at f/8 or above or hyperfocal is used, also making critical focus not as vital than the S, where really belongs in studios and on tripods

1) surely you've heard of Noctilux lenses? You will find that they have slightly shallower depth of field than the S 100/2.0 (the S lens with the shallowest depth of field).

2) that means I've been using the S wrong all these years. I've used it in the arctic, in torrential downpours, at weddings, in snowstorms, on beaches, etc. Now I learn that it's meant to be a studio camera!

 

I understand that some people have issues focusing the S, and I don't mean to disrespect these people. Maybe SLRs aren't the optimal tool for them in certain situations. I have a friend who can only focus an M rangefinder in low light, his eyes don't agree with focusing screens in the dark, and the noise and lag of EVFs annoy him.

In the end, we are all looking for tools that we are comfortable with, and that optimize our workflow.

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[AlanD]

The L mount alliance has shown that Leica is willing to partner with other companies.

My wishful thinking.

The S3 is probably the pinnacle of the OVF.  So, for the S4 they should move toward mirrorless.  Developing an SL body with Leica Pro format sensor is a lot of money, and my magical thinking solution would be for Leica to partner with FujiFilm around the GFX mount the way they do so with Panasonic.  Panasonic and FujiFilm already collaborate on organic sensor technology and the S mount doesn’t compete with the L mount.  This would involve S to GF smart adapter, and be similar to Panasonic/SL comparisons.

This let’s Leica focus on M and SL, but still have the S glass which can be adapted to SL for SL bodies but also have a path for existing S owners.

In exchange, FujiFilm could provide Leica with film simulation technology and I am sure added lens or lens component manufacturing capacity.  The one thing that is impressive about Fuji is their overall availability of lenses and capability to manufacture to premium Leica standards if they choose to.  (Fuji cine line is a good example and the XF 200mm provides the same resolving power as a Nikon D850 with a 300/2.8).  They are one of the few companies even today that don’t have months and months of wait time for optical products.

[tom0511]

So what would be the difference to just buy a Fuji? I am sure Fuji lenses are very good, I doubt however they can produce up to Leica material and optical standards.

If you want a mirrorless MF camera, mirrorless with Fuji film emulation, and lenses produced by Fuji, why not just buy a Fuji system today?

Also Fuji seems to have different color tweaking.

 

 

[Stuart Richardson]

If they are going to make a mirrorless camera, it seems to me at least that the most reasonable option would be to make it a scaled up SL series camera. They could use the same viewfinder and lots of component parts, and it would be consistent with their design language. It would most likely be L mount itself, if that is large enough to support MF image circles. That way you could use the SL lenses natively in the same manner that one can use the L mount lenses on the CL.

Whether this will happen is another question. It seems the S line is not really selling or doing much for Leica at this time.

[aksclix]

11 hours ago, AlanD said:

wishful thinking

I am afraid it will be wishful thinking indeed 😌 the amalgamation of two distinct companies would mean a lot of compromises on both sides.. moreover, Fuji is already immensely successful in their game.. their tech is backed by quality as well as availability like you said.. they don’t need to tie up with anybody at all.. 

Leica could simply launch an S4 with the same S3’s sensor housed in a new mirrorless design body.. together with a top notch S lens adapter to begin with… while they work on and launch mirrorless lenses in phases.. 

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

I doubt however they can produce up to Leica material and optical standards

There are no complaints about the optical standards of gf lenses.. the 23, 110, 250 are stunning and their zooms are plenty good.. Leica build quality is definitely better but it’s not even a compromise worthy of a mention.. I do not like how the 110 and 250 gf lenses look on the outside but their optical performance is stellar

[ZHNL]

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Just get a mirrorless S going with one or two native lenses start with and functional adapter for existing S mount lenses. A x1d II like S mirrorless camera will instantly have my money. I see this as better bet than L mount for Leica TBH even I do like SL2/2S a lot. 

I have zero complain on S glasses. All of them are great.     

[tom0511]

S lenses are optimized for phase AF, and big. I don't believe they would work great in mirrorless camera.

My guess: If Leica will move to a mirrorless MF camera they will present new lenses.

For my part I would rather see A S4 based on S3 but with phase AF. I guess it won't happen though. 

[ZHNL]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

S lenses are optimized for phase AF, and big. I don't believe they would work great in mirrorless camera.

My guess: If Leica will move to a mirrorless MF camera they will present new lenses.

For my part I would rather see A S4 based on S3 but with phase AF. I guess it won't happen though. 

Yes, they are not designed for Mirrorless camera. However, after using X1DII and even Fuji GFX, I think AF speed and quietness definitely are not priority even for those native glass system.  I am sure S can meet my personal standard. Using S glass on SL2 will give you ballpark of performance. I am just not a fan of size/speed ratio of S performance on L.  Otherwise, it performs pretty good with very good accuracy but slightly slow and laud. 

S glass designed with no real weakness IMHO. I especially like the distortion and corner (coverage) performance of S glasses that put priority on raw optical quality than size and weight. Most Mirrorless lenses require software correction on distortion and vignette control. I have no complain about sharpness or color correction of those lenses but do mind corner constrain with strong cat eye bokeh compare to ultra smooth S look.  

I just need a platform for those wonderful S glasses. 

Edited December 20, 2021 by ZHNL

[tom0511]

ZHNL -whats your complain about S007 or S3?

[ZHNL]

Not much for 007 but for the way I use S 006 with real shutter speed dial fit me way better in field. I do prefer 006 sensor/color by a wide margin.

S3? I haven’t used it. If There is a complain, then it is no hardware upgrade. The same 007 dial and ergo. I still can’t understand the S3 move. It is unheard of from any. I don’t know how decision was made to put S in this awkward position. I don’t need extra 1.2 linear increasing of resolution bump from 37M to 64M so S3 can be on hold. Sorry, it may sound harsh. 
 

Why mirrorless? Because it is a Leica MF mirrorless:) That is enough. Because I can use my favorite glass—-> S glass to take advantage of mirrorless and having 006 for both OVF and EVF goodness. Because I can use 80lux, 58G, 100 AEM R and Zeiss OTUS on Leica MF with awesome Leica IQ, ergo and control. 

[davidmknoble]

On 12/21/2021 at 12:45 PM, ZHNL said:

Not much for 007 but for the way I use S 006 with real shutter speed dial fit me way better in field. I do prefer 006 sensor/color by a wide margin.

S3? I haven’t used it. If There is a complain, then it is no hardware upgrade. The same 007 dial and ergo. I still can’t understand the S3 move. It is unheard of from any. I don’t know how decision was made to put S in this awkward position. I don’t need extra 1.2 linear increasing of resolution bump from 37M to 64M so S3 can be on hold. Sorry, it may sound harsh. 
 

Why mirrorless? Because it is a Leica MF mirrorless:) That is enough. Because I can use my favorite glass—-> S glass to take advantage of mirrorless and having 006 for both OVF and EVF goodness. Because I can use 80lux, 58G, 100 AEM R and Zeiss OTUS on Leica MF with awesome Leica IQ, ergo and control. 

From those that have used the S3 extensively, I have learned more about the under the hood improvements.  Personally, I love the idea of the same body - it means no learning curve and my RRS bracket and the grip with extra battery all still fit.  That was a gripe I had from the SL to the SL2.  in any event, the S3 has a complete overhaul of the color array and produces better color to start with.  Extra megapixels also allow for more severe cropping without loss of image size (i.e. 63mp to 37mp is a pretty severe crop if you are happy with the S007 size). 

I have a used S3 coming and I will compare them with some landscape work, but it willl be awhile because of work.  I am expecting some outstanding color and similar flexibility of the DNG files.

As an aside, I tried an S006 and what I found was that accidentally turning on the +/- exposure adjustment, the shutter speed dial was no longer right.  The shutter speed was different from what I had the dial set to and getting a proper exposure was not intuitive to me.  I use the S007 in Aperture mode and use the top dial for +/- exposure adjustment seeing everything through the viewfinder.  Just me, but I find the S007 much easier to use and expect the S3 to be the same.

[Dsauro]

I love my S3.   When the absolute best capture is needed in a landscape scene, I turn to my S3. The colors and rendering form the S glass is magical.  I can’t articulate why, but it just is.     I believe the S3 is the penultimate in the Leica line.  The files just sing.  I hope Leica continues its development into the MF line.   

Edited January 12, 2022 by Dsauro

[tom0511]

While the S system is still imo abgreat system (I mean its clearly faster than the x1dii, thenlenses are faster than xcd except the 80mm, the S lenses show less vignetting and in some focalmlengths also nicer bokeh) I am also disappointed, that it has not been developped any further . I mean In 2008 the S was WoW, compared to the competition. Nothing else in this size with  this speed, and weatherproff etc.

I agree, a little better AF, a touch screen, maybe ibis,  and one or two smaller lenses (45/3.5 C (compact) and a 90/4.0 C)

the customers have decided for mirrorless and against optical viewfinders. Impersonally still see goodnreasons also formoptical viewfinders and phase detection AF. Inguess if I find a used S 3 for angoodnprice Inmight get that and justbuse the S system formthe rest of my life !)

 and if it has to be more flexible just the SL, and when it needs to be really fast with c-af the d500. 

[ZHNL]

13 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

As an aside, I tried an S006 and what I found was that accidentally turning on the +/- exposure adjustment, the shutter speed dial was no longer right.  The shutter speed was different from what I had the dial set to and getting a proper exposure was not intuitive to me.  I use the S007 in Aperture mode and use the top dial for +/- exposure adjustment seeing everything through the viewfinder.  Just me, but I find the S007 much easier to use and expect the S3 to be the same.

I am confused here. There is no easy exposure compensation option on any S camera. You have to long push one custom button to do so. And when shutter speed dial is not at “A”, EC wont affect shutter speed you selected in m mode. 
 

the beauty of 006 is real shutter speed dial. For S, I am 100% manual exposure. Everything is so simple and under my fully control. 
 

007 should have an option to customize the top dial as easy EC compensation when camera in Aperture priority mode. This no mark dial is useless during Aperture priority shooting. Unfortunately, Leica never do a firmware update on this. 

Edited January 12, 2022 by ZHNL

[davidmknoble]

10 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I am confused here. There is no easy exposure compensation option on any S camera. You have to long push one custom button to do so. And when shutter speed dial is not at “A”, EC wont affect shutter speed you selected in m mode. 
 

the beauty of 006 is real shutter speed dial. For S, I am 100% manual exposure. Everything is so simple and under my fully control. 
 

007 should have an option to customize the top dial as easy EC compensation when camera in Aperture priority mode. This no mark dial is useless during Aperture priority shooting. Unfortunately, Leica never do a firmware update on this. 

I’ve used the S007 for 4 years.  I have the top dial set to increase / decrease exposure using the aperture priority mode and it works very well.  I can look through the viewfinder and adjust the exposure up and down by 3 stops from the metered exposure.  I don’t look at the top dial for that, but rather for the depth of field.

What I was trying to explain re: the S006, was that I set the exposure compensation, and then the shutter speed dial does not show the shutter speed of the exposure, but I could not easily tell what the exposure would be.  So, say I had it set to +1 stop, then the shutter speed might read 1/250 sec, but it would really expose at 1/125 of second.

I’m sure it has a lot to do with where you start.  I started with the S007 and got an S006 as a backup camera, but couldn’t use it because it was counterintuitive to using the S007.

I use manual and aperture mode depending on what I’m shooting (and whether I have a flash attached), but I can see the shutter speed on the display easily.  For tripod work, I find it a great system.

I can see how, if you started with the S006, you prefer that over the S007.

[ZHNL]

2 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

I’ve used the S007 for 4 years.  I have the top dial set to increase / decrease exposure using the aperture priority mode and it works very well.  I can look through the viewfinder and adjust the exposure up and down by 3 stops from the metered exposure.  I don’t look at the top dial for that, but rather for the depth of field.

What I was trying to explain re: the S006, was that I set the exposure compensation, and then the shutter speed dial does not show the shutter speed of the exposure, but I could not easily tell what the exposure would be.  So, say I had it set to +1 stop, then the shutter speed might read 1/250 sec, but it would really expose at 1/125 of second.

I’m sure it has a lot to do with where you start.  I started with the S007 and got an S006 as a backup camera, but couldn’t use it because it was counterintuitive to using the S007.

I use manual and aperture mode depending on what I’m shooting (and whether I have a flash attached), but I can see the shutter speed on the display easily.  For tripod work, I find it a great system.

I can see how, if you started with the S006, you prefer that over the S007.

Can you double check 007 setting. I never be able to use top dial to do exposure compensation. If this can be done, I would have used aperture priority and EC dial much more often without missing 006's control. With 007, if you are in aperture priority mode, you can't easily set up EC without long push one of custom button (006 is the same here)

With 007 In manual mode, you have no idea which shutter speed you have by looking top before you pick up camera. (it either sleep or show DOF scale) then, you need half press shutter to active dial, adjust speed either relying on top lcd or inside viewfinder. This sounds OK but not for someone like me use to direct control of 006.  If we can do easy EC like you described, it will solve one of my biggest complaints about 007's control.  SL2 (or any digital cameras I used) has no such an issue that I can map either front or back dial to do EC in aperture priority mode. 

Then, what you described about 006 also doesn't match what it is. For 006, EC just work the way it should in auto, aperture priority mode, or shutter priority mode. if you are in manual mode, EC won't affect shutter speed. Camera will always honor your speed dial selection.

Only difference you will notice is exposure indication will change inside your viewfinder depend on your EC selection. For example, if the manual setting has one stop under exposure in Videfinder with 0 EC set, if you set EC to -1 stop, it will show spot on exposure in viewfinder. Because leica's S EC implementation, I settled with manual mode only. 

Both S cameras are great with different trade off. I wish 006 can have LV or more responsive shutter. But for the way I use S, 006 win for me.  I am waiting for Mirrorless S, if not happen, I will just get S3 in the future once price goes down. I can't believe after all these years, I still love S camera as much as 8 years ago. Never happen before, may never happen in the future.  

[tom0511]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb ZHNL:

Can you double check 007 setting. I never be able to use top dial to do exposure compensation. If this can be done, I would have used aperture priority and EC dial much more often without missing 006's control. With 007, if you are in aperture priority mode, you can't easily set up EC without long push one of custom button (006 is the same here)

.....

I am very interested in this as well. I was allways trying to use the top dial in A Mode for exp compensation (How I use my SL2) but found no way to configurate my S007 that way. Did I miss someting?

[davidmknoble]

2 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I am very interested in this as well. I was allways trying to use the top dial in A Mode for exp compensation (How I use my SL2) but found no way to configurate my S007 that way. Did I miss someting?

I am wrong and I apologize.  I went to the manual for the S (never understood why it isn’t a PDF that says S007, but anyway) and I also keep the 5.0 firmware PDF because it has the changes for every firmware prior.  Then I pulled out the S007 and tried to implement it.  My S007 remains on manual, which is what I believe you said @ZHNL.

I am a heavy user of the SL system (SL2-S) @tom0511 and that is how the SL system uses EC in the A mode, moving the top dial.  

I have beta tested a few S007 firmwares, so I will inquire about the ability to do this on the S series when another firmware is developed.  Firmware was released not long ago for the S3, so hopefully there is an opportunity.  

I have always suggested that the SL and S series should have similar options with the top dial and thumb wheel to allow movement between systems.  I had a hard time parting with the SL to the SL2 because the buttons on the back were the same as the S and I had mine customized to the same settings.

I do have my S007 custom settings as follows:

DOF button:  mirror up (because I do landscape on a tripod)

UL - ISO
BL - Metering
UR - White Bal
BR - EC

@ZHNL, I only had the S006 for a week or two so I may be misremembering, but I know I had a hard time switching between the two S’s because the interface was different enough I was having trouble getting exposures the way I wanted.

 

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[ynp]

22 hours ago, ZHNL said:

007 should have an option to customize the top dial as easy EC compensation when camera in Aperture priority mode. This no mark dial is useless during Aperture priority shooting. Unfortunately, Leica never do a firmware update on this.

+1