S4 product recommendation

[tom0511]

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vor 1 Stunde schrieb jplomley:

The only product worth considering a long term "investment" with Leica is the M product line. Everything else they have introduced is a secondary afterthought with very little commitment. Just look at the extremely slow roll out of SL glass. We still do not have the promised wide angle L APO SC's promised some four years ago. This is another reason they loose their competitive edge. No strategic planning whatsoever. 

At least there is the L alliance if you need wide primes or 70200 lenses. For some reason I feel the SL generates enough business that Leica will continue this system in a long term.

There are few lenses but then some of them are really exceptional rendering. And eventhough I use now a Canon R5 for sports, the SL2 is still my prefered allround system.

[Jeff S]

9 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

Well, prices have never been the reason to buy a Leica.

Conversely, profits matter to Leica. And they decide.  See R system.  The M system might be more price insensitive, but I’d be surprised if the quickly changing digital MF (and broader) market didn’t significantly affect Leica decision making. Regardless, only Leica know its business. Meanwhile, Leica innovation came in other ways.  See SL/Q systems. And stay tuned.

Jeff

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[tom0511]

Anyways, there camera give me the most joy for my photography hobby. And while some systems died faster than competition, the time the M-system has been here is unbeaten by others. What a great timeless design.

 

[jplomley]

30 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Conversely, profits matter to Leica. And they decide.  See R system.  The M system might be more price insensitive, but I’d be surprised if the quickly changing digital MF (and broader) market didn’t significantly affect Leica decision making. Regardless, only Leica know its business. Meanwhile, Leica innovation came in other ways.  See SL/Q systems. And stay tuned.

Jeff

Cannot argue with Leica's innovation, that's for certain. Its the prolongation of support and continuance for that innovation. Seems like they make an initial big splash with a de novo product, then do not follow through on continuing with the innovation. Where are the wide angle SC's? Lenses longer then 280 mm. A macro lens? Tilt-shift? The L is an incomplete system by a long-shot.

[Jeff S]

4 minutes ago, jplomley said:

Cannot argue with Leica's innovation, that's for certain. Its the prolongation of support and continuance for that innovation. Seems like they make an initial big splash with a de novo product, then do not follow through on continuing with the innovation. Where are the wide angle SC's? Lenses longer then 280 mm. A macro lens? Tilt-shift? The L is an incomplete system by a long-shot.

Only they know, but somewhere along the line I think they reassessed the market and/or reset priorities to better ensure success… as *they* define it.  Can’t please us all.  And Leica is arguably doing more than most to remain viable in a tough and volatile industry.

My concerns are more about QC, servicing (notably US), communications, etc. But that’s another thread.

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

4 hours ago, jplomley said:

Cannot argue with Leica's innovation, that's for certain. Its the prolongation of support and continuance for that innovation. Seems like they make an initial big splash with a de novo product, then do not follow through on continuing with the innovation. Where are the wide angle SC's? Lenses longer then 280 mm. A macro lens? Tilt-shift? The L is an incomplete system by a long-shot.

I think this is true if you think of the system as only being Leica. I think the precise reason that Leica wanted to pair with Panasonic and Sigma was so that they themselves would not have to build every single lens, most of which would be very slow sellers and potentially a net loss to the company...if not in funds, then in R&D work hours. I think Leica's philosophy around this is to give buyers the main lenses that they will use, so the wide to normal primes (28-90), the basic zooms 16-280mm, and everything else can be filled in by Sigma and Panasonic, or by their own M, R and S lenses. Sigma especially has made some really good L mount lenses, all the way out to 600mm (maybe more?). I agree that it would be very nice to get a 21mm of 24mm APO Summicron, but in the meantime a Leica L mount user can choose the Leica 16-35mm zoom, a Leica M wide angle, a Leica R wide angle, the S 24mm, the Sigma 24mm, the other Sigma 24mm, the Panasonic 24mm, the Sigma 20mm, the Sigma 14-24mm etc.

[Pieter12]

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On 5/3/2022 at 2:35 PM, helged said:

Its hard to believe it will happen. But Leica has surprised before... 

Yeah. Like when the M5 nearly tanked the company. So they walked away from a superior camera to make ones that would sell to those who value heritage looks and feel. It would not surprise me if they abandoned the S entirely. The target professionals (who would be able to rationalize the expense) didn't bite for a $30,000+ camera that was more super-35 than medium-format. Fuji, Hasselblad and Phase One are pretty much the only major players left in that field. Leica has joined the digital upgrade bandwagon, releasing new digital cameras as often (maybe more often) as the Japanese manufacturers.

[fgio1]

hi  , im not an s user but im planning on buying a leica 007 or a gfx 100s , i tried leica 007 and i pretty much fell in crazy love with it , from the user experience to the amazing files, i realized that no matter how good it is you can' beat ovf  and in  the last 5 years i have been a really die hard supporter of evf (i loved sl2 evf) ,, the only thing that is holding me back is the fact that the system might : die  (the worst thing all) , turn to mirroless ( it could bother me but i would accept it if there are other major benefits) turn to mirrorlees changing lenses (financially speaking horrible  but way better than no MF option from leica ), at the moment i could not buy the latest S camera but in the next few years i probably will be able to do it id like to to pay that exagerated(even if the right price would be  more  13 -16k euros  or let't say 5-6k more than competitors  ) price tag if the camera feels the best of the best  (i have not seen yet the gfx100 files but probably a 2014 camera beats a 2020 one ),but i also realize the leica needs to actually sell the camera so these are the real upgrades that they should make :

 

resolution can remain the same  64 mp is already a lot , a high resolution could make sense only if it cost 0 in terms of iso/noise ratio and minimum accetable shutter time, the true special resolution was the old 37,5 mp if you don't consider printing  , in the FF world im always more shure that the true best Pixel pitch is 6 µm , among the M cameras the 24 mp ones are the best in terms of personality , only m11 has been able in my opinion to bend this my rule siglightly a long explanation would be needed but  long story short if leica s 007 didn't exist  i would have kept m11 and m10-p in my bag instead of selling m10p, and with only  m11 im always getting  more hungry for vintage lenses ,so id appreciate more improvements in the already insane dynamic range , improvements in colors science to beat competitors in their game  , outstanding iso/noise ratio   and especially if the resolution get's higher than 64 mp pixel binning technologhy some body could say '' why should you need pixel binning on all about quality camera'' because with 80-100mp files unless you get hard drives for free you need a lot of space and if really work with your camera in year is easy to fill  5-8  8tb  hard drives shooting mainly 24mp and some 50mp photos considering that where i live if you do professional work with your photos you need to have two backups in two different  places is better to reduce file size when is not needed, and i don't think that 100 mp are so useful when you are shooting an indoor wedding reportage , why should you record extra data when it will probably worsen the picture ?

if you feel that the camera makes your workflow tight you might decide to use it as a secondary camera would  but would you  rather spend 22k grand for a secondary camera or for all round workhorse  ?

 

i would keep the same camera body (later i will say why)i would upgrade  the memory compartment , dual uhs ii sd card would be already enough , but also adding a big(from 256gb to 1 TB)  internal  really high speed memory could be usefull it would be really expensive but it would allow to enginieer the new processor to make the shooting experience laser fast and no matter what ready to shoot , tiltable screen is a must and is not something that you could debate about it , if you don't have tiltable screen you have less  usable  prospectives on the field  than your competitors and you have actually something less 

 

the AF is already good but i would work to make it FF fast or so fast that is limited by the AF motor  desing (more on that later) a  MF that can be used in every professional  situation(sports excluded )  would be more desirable than any improvement in immage quality , being able to say '' with leica s i can end any job with one camera without i need two cameras '' is worth a way higher price tag than competitors 

 

the real killer feature  have been  wondering for a few days ? mirroles or reflex ?  why not both ?why shouldn't you make a hybrid camera ?  in other scenarios  and for the big players it would   make more sense to make a new camera  and new lenses , but for a niche system where even the R&D on the frame of the camera costs a lot ,a system that has already a big lens line up that would take years of non stop development to rebuild the full line and therfore reducing the possibility that other users get in to the system for at least 2-4 years (if you are a pro photographer you are used to certain kind of focal lenghts and depth of field  if you can't have those thing in a system you don't switch no matter how good  the camera is )  and you  have  also to consider that leica s lensens are not cheap at all if as professional photographer you see becoming all your lenses worthless   you could emotionally decide : ''im tired of your way of being leica i' ll buy something else''

what i mean by hybrid camera ? a camera that once you filp up the mirror lights up a display transforming  the OVF in a EVF  getting the benefits of both words 

OFV 

perfect focus/0 lag/high battery life/infinite resolution/better awareness of what  it will end up in the photo (the neutral exposure in a evf doesen't show you what you will be able to recover in post production ) and essential inteface 

EVF 

less vibrations(low light wedding ?    no problem let me switch the camera to evf and to central shutter recovering at least 1-3 stops of minimum shutter time )-exposure  preview -no problems with ND filters and focus peaking  ,  no need to focus and recompose  and 100 % coverage of the sensor 

 

trust me it would be way cheaper for leica and for it's clients to make the camera hybrid than mirroless with hybrid camera it would be able to be succesfull even outside of its niche and in the niche that buys it also because is the ''last great reflex'' , i mean professional photographers like mirrorles for the reasons i said up here, the fact that it would remain a big camera is not so important leica sl2  with  lenses(especially zooms)  is still a really heavy camera and imo opinion less comfortable and less balanced than leica  s  and it sells anyway   if you  gotta work with it you simply get used to it 

 

that's all i hope that i will make you simle and bring fresh air in the thread 

 

 

 

[BigBabyEarl]

Sooooo is now a good time to grab a S3 used or should I wait? 🤦🏻‍♂️

[tom0511]

I think its a good time to get a used S006 or S007 for discount price.  I have not seen used S3 for really attractive price.

 

Edited June 3, 2022 by tom0511

[lx1713]

On 5/23/2022 at 11:52 PM, fgio1 said:

hi  , im not an s user but im planning on buying a leica 007 or a gfx 100s , i tried leica 007 and i pretty much fell in crazy love with it , from the user experience to the amazing files, i realized that no matter how good it is you can' beat ovf  and in  the last 5 years i have been a really die hard supporter of evf (i loved sl2 evf) ,, the only thing that is holding me back is the fact that the system might : die  (the worst thing all) , turn to mirroless ( it could bother me but i would accept it if there are other major benefits) turn to mirrorlees changing lenses (financially speaking horrible  but way better than no MF option from leica ), at the moment i could not buy the latest S camera but in the next few years i probably will be able to do it id like to to pay that exagerated(even if the right price would be  more  13 -16k euros  or let't say 5-6k more than competitors  ) price tag if the camera feels the best of the best  (i have not seen yet the gfx100 files but probably a 2014 camera beats a 2020 one ),but i also realize the leica needs to actually sell the camera so these are the real upgrades that they should make :

 

resolution can remain the same  64 mp is already a lot , a high resolution could make sense only if it cost 0 in terms of iso/noise ratio and minimum accetable shutter time, the true special resolution was the old 37,5 mp if you don't consider printing  , in the FF world im always more shure that the true best Pixel pitch is 6 µm , among the M cameras the 24 mp ones are the best in terms of personality , only m11 has been able in my opinion to bend this my rule siglightly a long explanation would be needed but  long story short if leica s 007 didn't exist  i would have kept m11 and m10-p in my bag instead of selling m10p, and with only  m11 im always getting  more hungry for vintage lenses ,so id appreciate more improvements in the already insane dynamic range , improvements in colors science to beat competitors in their game  , outstanding iso/noise ratio   and especially if the resolution get's higher than 64 mp pixel binning technologhy some body could say '' why should you need pixel binning on all about quality camera'' because with 80-100mp files unless you get hard drives for free you need a lot of space and if really work with your camera in year is easy to fill  5-8  8tb  hard drives shooting mainly 24mp and some 50mp photos considering that where i live if you do professional work with your photos you need to have two backups in two different  places is better to reduce file size when is not needed, and i don't think that 100 mp are so useful when you are shooting an indoor wedding reportage , why should you record extra data when it will probably worsen the picture ?

if you feel that the camera makes your workflow tight you might decide to use it as a secondary camera would  but would you  rather spend 22k grand for a secondary camera or for all round workhorse  ?

 

i would keep the same camera body (later i will say why)i would upgrade  the memory compartment , dual uhs ii sd card would be already enough , but also adding a big(from 256gb to 1 TB)  internal  really high speed memory could be usefull it would be really expensive but it would allow to enginieer the new processor to make the shooting experience laser fast and no matter what ready to shoot , tiltable screen is a must and is not something that you could debate about it , if you don't have tiltable screen you have less  usable  prospectives on the field  than your competitors and you have actually something less 

 

the AF is already good but i would work to make it FF fast or so fast that is limited by the AF motor  desing (more on that later) a  MF that can be used in every professional  situation(sports excluded )  would be more desirable than any improvement in immage quality , being able to say '' with leica s i can end any job with one camera without i need two cameras '' is worth a way higher price tag than competitors 

 

the real killer feature  have been  wondering for a few days ? mirroles or reflex ?  why not both ?why shouldn't you make a hybrid camera ?  in other scenarios  and for the big players it would   make more sense to make a new camera  and new lenses , but for a niche system where even the R&D on the frame of the camera costs a lot ,a system that has already a big lens line up that would take years of non stop development to rebuild the full line and therfore reducing the possibility that other users get in to the system for at least 2-4 years (if you are a pro photographer you are used to certain kind of focal lenghts and depth of field  if you can't have those thing in a system you don't switch no matter how good  the camera is )  and you  have  also to consider that leica s lensens are not cheap at all if as professional photographer you see becoming all your lenses worthless   you could emotionally decide : ''im tired of your way of being leica i' ll buy something else''

what i mean by hybrid camera ? a camera that once you filp up the mirror lights up a display transforming  the OVF in a EVF  getting the benefits of both words 

OFV 

perfect focus/0 lag/high battery life/infinite resolution/better awareness of what  it will end up in the photo (the neutral exposure in a evf doesen't show you what you will be able to recover in post production ) and essential inteface 

EVF 

less vibrations(low light wedding ?    no problem let me switch the camera to evf and to central shutter recovering at least 1-3 stops of minimum shutter time )-exposure  preview -no problems with ND filters and focus peaking  ,  no need to focus and recompose  and 100 % coverage of the sensor 

 

trust me it would be way cheaper for leica and for it's clients to make the camera hybrid than mirroless with hybrid camera it would be able to be succesfull even outside of its niche and in the niche that buys it also because is the ''last great reflex'' , i mean professional photographers like mirrorles for the reasons i said up here, the fact that it would remain a big camera is not so important leica sl2  with  lenses(especially zooms)  is still a really heavy camera and imo opinion less comfortable and less balanced than leica  s  and it sells anyway   if you  gotta work with it you simply get used to it 

 

that's all i hope that i will make you simle and bring fresh air in the thread 

 

 

 

Maybe there's no need to reinvent the wheel. This is a Sinar M (2005). Sinar now belongs to Leica.

Its a very hybrid modular system with focal plane shutter for their P3 df view camera but during its launch you could use mirror modules, AF modules, prism, Hasselblad V and Nikon lenses, digital backs, Rodenstock, Sinaron, Schneider Kreunach large format lenses, etc. Its still used and serviced today (I believe) but not sold anymore. 

But the problem was price and market. Its the same problem today for Leica.

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Edited June 22, 2022 by lx1713

[aksclix]

On 6/22/2022 at 10:48 AM, lx1713 said:

Maybe there's no need to reinvent the wheel. This is a Sinar M (2005). Sinar now belongs to Leica.

Its a very hybrid modular system with focal plane shutter for their P3 df view camera but during its launch you could use mirror modules, AF modules, prism, Hasselblad V and Nikon lenses, digital backs, Rodenstock, Sinaron, Schneider Kreunach large format lenses, etc. Its still used and serviced today (I believe) but not sold anymore. 

But the problem was price and market. Its the same problem today for Leica.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

that is a beautiful sleek design.. did Hasselblad X1D steal this or what?

[helged]

50 minutes ago, aksclix said:

that is a beautiful sleek design.. did Hasselblad X1D steal this or what?

😉. As far as I recall, one of the central persons in Leica design/development went to Hasselblad, and that the same person was central (Key?) in the development of X1D. X1D was the mirrorless Leica S that some hoped for. But, as we know, Leica focussed on SL and ended up with a somewhat upgraded 007 (=S3) some years later. (Will be interesting to see whether Leica will come with a medium format mirrorless S). 

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, helged said:

😉. As far as I recall, one of the central persons in Leica design/development went to Hasselblad, and that the same person was central (Key?) in the development of X1D. X1D was the mirrorless Leica S that some hoped for. But, as we know, Leica focussed on SL and ended up with a somewhat upgraded 007 (=S3) some years later. (Will be interesting to see whether Leica will come with a medium format mirrorless S). 

ah!! there's got to be some influences for sure

[ynp]

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

ah!! there's got to be some influences for sure

As someone who owned a full Sinar-M system for about 12 years, I am not so sure that the Sinar and Hasselblad X resemble each other. Firstly, the Sinar shutter only is about 50% bigger than the X1d, you see only theM- shutter  on the picture above. Imagine a huge prism on the top and  huge battery on the bottom, or a smaller battery attached to the left side of the shutter. Secondly, it was a modular beast. With the 180mm. lens and an eMotion back it was about 4,5 kg. As far as I remember, the system was developed by a German company on the request of Sinar Switzerland and was the most advanced medium format system of the time. The AF lenses were from the Hasselblad V line with pretty fast AF motors, recased in Germany as well AFAIR, and  the system was faster in the AF mode than the Rollei 6008af was. 
 

Leica killed Sinar, they also killed the Sinar Hy6 and, now , the CL. It means I have owned three system cameras Leica killed on their way to the bright digital future. And they killed the R before.. 😏

Edited June 24, 2022 by ynp

[aksclix]

57 minutes ago, ynp said:

As someone who owned a full Sinar-M system for about 12 years, I am not so sure that the Sinar and Hasselblad X resemble each other. Firstly, the Sinar shutter only is about 50% bigger than the X1d, you see only theM- shutter  on the picture above. Imagine a huge prism on the top and  huge battery on the bottom, or a smaller battery attached to the left side of the shutter. Secondly, it was a modular beast. With the 180mm. lens and an eMotion back it was about 4,5 kg. As far as I remember, the system was developed by a German company on the request of Sinar Switzerland and was the most advanced medium format system of the time. The AF lenses were from the Hasselblad V line with pretty fast AF motors, recased in Germany as well AFAIR, and  the system was faster in the AF mode than the Rollei 6008af was. 
 

Leica killed Sinar, they also killed the Sinar Hy6 and, now , the CL. It means I have owned three system cameras Leica killed on their way to the bright digital future. And they killed the R before.. 😏

not the entire system.. just the image of the body posted above seemed to resemble x1d.. not a ditto match, just seems like there may have been some influence. No way to tell if there was or wasn't.. even if there was, who's gonna admit 😃

[Pieter12]

59 minutes ago, ynp said:

Leica killed Sinar, they also killed the Sinar Hy6

The may have killed the Sinar-branded Hy6, but the Rollei Hy6 is still alive and in production, albeit at very low rate and with no current digital backs available at the moment. I have read that they are adapting the new IQ3 backs for it, not sure what the availability is at this point.

[ynp]

8 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

The may have killed the Sinar-branded Hy6, but the Rollei Hy6 is still alive and in production, albeit at very low rate and with no current digital backs available at the moment. I have read that they are adapting the new IQ3 backs for it, not sure what the availability is at this point.

Thank you. I did not realize that the Rollei version is still manufactured. I still have a Rollei 6008af with the db20p, but have not used it for several years. 

[BernardC]

The Sinar 30|45 is still listed, which is a camera similar to the M, but with the option of using Leica S lenses.

Sinar products stopped being available in North America a long time ago. They have some dealers listed, but not any that you would recognize. They used to be the default studio camera, but now even a tiny company like Arca Swiss has a bigger presence in this market.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[ynp]

3 minutes ago, BernardC said:

The Sinar 30|45 is still listed, which is a camera similar to the M, but with the option of using Leica S lenses.

Yes the 30/45 is still listed. It’s a shutter-less camera and it relies on the central shutter S-lenses. You have to buy an expensive electronic shutter to use on a view camera with movements.
Why bother if any current mirrorless camera can act as both the shutter and digital back on my Actus.