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S4 product recommendation


aksclix

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2 hours ago, ZHNL said:

No hard feeling. We don't need agree each other for personal preference. I never used new lux as they are too expensive for what they bring I feel. I have Nikon 105e which can achieve even shallower DOF with exceptional sharpness. The rendering is gorgeous as well. Have you seen latest Canon R, Sony Alpha, Sigma or Nikon Z glasses, almost all of them are super sharp with low color error. 

Again, I feel you overrated sharpness value in final image. You see those detail only you zoom in or closely inspect part of image to feel the benefit. To me, the overall rendering and look of image are more valuable. It is not like no other lenses as good as S but it is just rare to have a set of glasses consistently show this treat I value highly effortless make the S system special to me. 

I'm not a sharpness junkie by any stretch. I'm more fond of my 50SL Summilux and 75mm Noctilux than I am the APO Summicrons. But this new generation of lenses bring things to the table that previous generations did not (I count the 75 Noctilux and 90 Summilux in this group). And their renderings are nothing to sneeze at or disdain. Pick up any recent LFI and you can see the differences between older lenses and the new generation. And that's on an 8x11 page.  

I had the S system for ten years—S2, 006, 007, and five lenses. Loved the experience and the results. But it is not the future.  

Edited by John Smith
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2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think they will go in this direction...it is even more niche than the S system is already, and I think that kind of supremely technical, studio based solution is more taken care of by Phase One. I suspect Sinar will just continue as a somewhat vestigial arm selling view camera and studio components for the few that need them.

I would love to see Leica come-out with a camera similar to the 907x. Not exactly similar, of course, but "similarly different."

The Sinarback S 30|45 is such a camera, but it's not fully worked-out (it's based on the S-007), and it's not marketed to anyone but a few European studios. I'm not even sure you can buy one in North America.

An S3-based version could be interesting if it had real cine capabilities, and if it allowed the use of SL lenses. They could offer a basic version with no lens mount for technical cameras, an adapter for S lenses (which they already have), and an adapter for SL lenses, plus cine adapters (PL, LPL).

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just shot some images with the S007 and 45 and 120 today, and really, I don't know why I have used it so seldom and jumped on newer systems lately. Feel like cheating. The IQ, in my subjective view is exceptional smooth, film like, 3d. I love it! I will use the S  more often again. Even when I expect sometimes some images without perfect focus accuracy.

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14 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

just shot some images with the S007 and 45 and 120 today, and really, I don't know why I have used it so seldom and jumped on newer systems lately. Feel like cheating. The IQ, in my subjective view is exceptional smooth, film like, 3d. I love it! I will use the S  more often again. Even when I expect sometimes some images without perfect focus accuracy.

if its 007, its quite natural to have that "bond" :D :D  

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Clearly, Leica knows how to make super-uber-lenses, like the SL-Crons. The S lenses are good, but not as perfect at today's standard. Still, I prefer the look from the S-system compared to SL/SL2... 

If S4 materialises, I would think new S lenses will be offered as well, adding modern optical perfection to the S-system. And if S4 is a mirrorless body (can't imagine anything else), lots of lenses can be used, increasing the system's potential and usability.

Edited by helged
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2 hours ago, John Smith said:

I had the S system for ten years—S2, 006, 007, and five lenses. Loved the experience and the results. But it is not the future.  

I honestly don't understand what are you talking about.  I've not used the M 75mm Noctilux and 90mm Summilux because I took Thorsten von Overgaard's word and pictures for it -- too clinical.  Thorsten says a lot of things many people agree or disagree with, but I'm with him on that.  The 50 Noct is better in its overall artistic output than the 75 Noct.  There's nothing in S lenses that's superseded by any of the new ones, IMHO.  The mirrorless MF are equally clinical.  If you like clinical then of course more MPs of clinical will be even better.  

I realized I prefer the OVF and the experience of photography to MF race and got a DFA 50/1.4 for my Pentax K-1 instead of chasing GFX100S.  I love the results, some say it's like a Summilux.  However it's hard for K-1 to get everything right every time, and I see how magical S is, even a year older than the K-1.  And the lens came out in 2018, with the DFA 95/1.4 that followed up recently.

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One thing I have seen over the years I have been in photography is that new, latest technology lenses are often derided as clinical, and ten years later when the shine is off and sharper lenses are available, suddenly they are romantic and lovely, and the newest generation is again lambasted as being too sharp or too clinical. I think it is nearly always an issue of what one is accustomed to. You build up a library of images that you like taken with lenses that you like, and then when something new comes and looks different, it "disturbs" because it is not quite what you are used to. In general, the goal of lens making is to reproduce the scene as faithfully as possible, so I have a hard time understanding how better lenses can be "harsh"...unless of course reality is too harsh for you, in which case I recommend a bottle of wine and a Hexar AF. That has always worked for me in the past...

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Agreed, as evidenced by forum discussions over time. But a lot depends, too, on subject matter (e.g., portraits vs landscapes), rendering style and taste,  processing skills, output/display intent (color vs b/w, prints vs online, size/magnification), etc. Thankfully we’re not all like minded.

Jeff

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1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

One thing I have seen over the years I have been in photography is that new, latest technology lenses are often derided as clinical, and ten years later when the shine is off and sharper lenses are available, suddenly they are romantic and lovely, and the newest generation is again lambasted as being too sharp or too clinical. I think it is nearly always an issue of what one is accustomed to. You build up a library of images that you like taken with lenses that you like, and then when something new comes and looks different, it "disturbs" because it is not quite what you are used to. In general, the goal of lens making is to reproduce the scene as faithfully as possible, so I have a hard time understanding how better lenses can be "harsh"...unless of course reality is too harsh for you, in which case I recommend a bottle of wine and a Hexar AF. That has always worked for me in the past...

For shooting full DOF picture. There is no too harsh or not because you want recreate the scene. 

For shallow DOF images, the difference in rendering are very real and easily detect with experience. It is well known in Lens designers as well. For example: under corrected Spherical aberration will result smoother background. Abrupt focus transition is not all wanted than slower gentle roll off no matter they are for portrait or subject.

Too sharp and contrast lenses may not a good thing. I consider this as a hardware level sharpening or clarity adjustment that are similar to raw converter sharpen or slider adjustment that will degrade the image smoothness or background contrast.

There is also adjustment for adjust front bokeh and back bokeh by tuning spherical aberration correction in lens design.  Nikon designers mentioned in multiple interview that they purposely turn down sharpness or SA correction to achieve better rendering lenses and this trend can be clearly see from Sony's GM glasses as well as other glasses manufacture include Panasonic. They all pay lots of attention to bokeh now and the bokeh of lens are very different if you care. Nowadays, I feel lenses with good sharpness and color correction are in normal state but lenses with good sharpness and good looking background are more rare and thought after.

I firmly believe Market will shift to that direction once everybody can design super sharp lenses with computer aid and fancy glasses element or grinding ASPH tech.   

My 2c.  

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75 noctilux at f1.25. Clinical?

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On 4/19/2021 at 7:18 PM, ZHNL said:

Once I have enjoyed tilt LCD on tripod, there is no way I forget it. GFX 100S and Panasonic have the best implementation in business. 

Only if Leica can deliver a useable iphone APP which is not,  shooting S on tripod under strong day light or low angle are miserable experience at best. 

With ND filter from 6~10 stop, you may have zero lag but you can't see anything anyway:) I don't know if there is good way to focus even other than focus first and put filter on after. 

Low light focus is one of big advantages of MILC cameras.   

I frequently shoot the S007 in harsh coastal light and have no trouble with the optical viewfinder.  I use square slide-in filters so I focus and then add the ND. I’m glad you enjoy them on the GFX and Panasonic!  I just prefer the optical finders.  Ironically, I just spent the weekend shooting the coast with an old R8 on a tripod and really enjoyed the simplicity.  

I will say low light is much easier on the M with the rangefinder, but most of my photography is not so low that I cannot focus with the optical finder...   

 

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On 4/19/2021 at 7:19 PM, aksclix said:

Really? The primes were getting sold out fast earlier.. they're more in stock of late.. 

I was referring to development.  The SL lenses were typically behind schedule, but yes they do sell out quickly!  I’ve seen stock go up and down as they rotate among products to get them out the door... may be that post pandemic things speed up again!

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On 4/19/2021 at 7:47 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I doubt they would leave the body shell unchanged for mirrorless, because doing so would mean that you could not adapt M, R or SL lenses. Leica also tends to take design seriously, and leaving the camera in its current shape (which was developed specifically for an SLR format) does not make sense with mirrorless. I am sure that if the S4 is mirrorless, it will be in a new body. I am also sure, however, that they will try to maintain key features of the S body, so that existing users will feel at home. My hope would be that Leica would leave the 4 button interface, which really is better to use than the one they changed to in the SL2, but it goes against what they have been doing with their other cameras. The SL2 is already pretty familiar to the S in terms of handling, so I suspect that a mirrorless S4 would be similar. In addition to sensor size, I suspect they will find other ways to differentiate it from the SL line, but I am not sure what they would be. Perhaps a larger VF, better flash integration etc. 

Stuart, I don’t think I follow you here.  If Leica were to create an S4 mirrorless that could take SL, M or R lenses too, isn’t that what the current SL2 is? Wouldn’t that dilute the entire point of the S system and the customer base for that system? 

I guess it just seems to make sense to keep one DSLR and one mirrorless.  Canon and Nikon do that now, they were just later getting into the mirrorless.

I do agree on the 4 button system, it took me serious thought to upgrade from the SL to the SL2, but IBIS and sensor size helped.  I really missed the GPS on the SL2 as well and the fact that I had to sell / re-buy a grip to hold extra batteries.  We’ll see!

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47 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

Stuart, I don’t think I follow you here.  If Leica were to create an S4 mirrorless that could take SL, M or R lenses too, isn’t that what the current SL2 is? Wouldn’t that dilute the entire point of the S system and the customer base for that system? 

 

It’s what I called a comprehensive ecosystem (post #69).  And the question I posed in post #89. But that’s IF the OVF, which is at the core of the current S system, is ditched.  If it goes mirrorless, it would seem silly to not adapt other lenses as the technology supports.  Plenty of customers own multiple Leica systems, for different reasons and purposes, without ‘diluting’ the other.  Medium format provides its own characteristics, pro and con.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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1 hour ago, davidmknoble said:

I frequently shoot the S007 in harsh coastal light and have no trouble with the optical viewfinder.  I use square slide-in filters so I focus and then add the ND. I’m glad you enjoy them on the GFX and Panasonic!  I just prefer the optical finders.  Ironically, I just spent the weekend shooting the coast with an old R8 on a tripod and really enjoyed the simplicity.  

I will say low light is much easier on the M with the rangefinder, but most of my photography is not so low that I cannot focus with the optical finder...   

 

Harsh coastal light is the case OVF shine. Did I say not? Just want to clarify. 

Yes, I use slide in filter as well. just whenever you do wide to super wide shooting that will include foreground stuff, your final composed image is very sensitive to tri-pod height. Many times, you find yourself have no choice but lower to it. And at low angle, this could be a problem. I also prefer not take square filter off if the camera are capable to focus with 10 stop ND filter to avoid accidents. (It happens a few times on me and twice with S system because I have to take it off)   

Here is one I took with GFX100s and 45mm two weeks ago with my tripod about 0.5m high in the water. I don't know if I could put myself down in the water to do the composition with S.  It maybe possible but just take a lot more efforts. 

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And this one just from last week with GFX100S and 30mm vertical stitch was on the edge of cliff that I need to be very careful about my tripod location and because very limited space behind me, my camera is at about my waist level. There is no way I want risk my life to bent down on OVF or look fixed LCD for focus or composition. I will just give this image up if I use S. 

 

You can see this is all happen just within a month. Again, I am not trying to argue for the sake of argument. Flip LCD is just very useful tool in field. Not having it is OK for Leica S (because I am taking the trade off given there is no other choice available and stop take S for such occasions) but I won't buy another camera without it. 

Edited by ZHNL
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2 minutes ago, setuporg said:

So the PHOTOS app really works for the cases you need an angled view...

I sold my 007, kept 006 and eye number 3. 

It is not a workable solution to me for both cases even assume we have a usable app which is not, can you image how awkward to use it in those two cases? Knock the camera down or drop your phone? LOL   

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

I used the app fine.  I'd say be careful around the camera as usual, and hold on your phone tight.:).

But yes I see how having a tilt screen could help...

Agree, FOTOS app are generally working eell (with SL2 and S3), but when focusing on photography, I clearly want as few distractions/gadgets as possible...

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