S4 product recommendation

[davidmknoble]

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If we assume that dynamic range is no longer the biggest selling point because of technology advances, then the feature that is left are the lenses.  Leica glass for the S system is heavy for two reasons:  1) Leica isn’t afraid to use more lens elements and exotic glasses to get the best lens they can (it’s not the M system for compactness) and 2) the f/stops are slightly more open than many of the competitions which causes the lens to be larger in diameter.  Mix in the fact that the housing is metal and not plastic and we have an incredible, but heavy, lens.

With heavy lenses, we need heavier bodies to hold the lens, balance the weight and ensure the system stays within tolerance.

We’ve all gotten used to a little lag from pressing the shutter to capturing the image, and probably built that into our reflexes.  Yet, seeing through the glass, uninterrupted by a computer is important.  It becomes one less obstacle to know what you will get in the capture.  I also use graduated ND filters on most of my shots, which means I need to see where the line of the graduation is.  This is difficult on the SL system because the EVF compensates for it.  I can press the stop down button on the S and see exactly where the lines are.

There is an EVF for the S system, it is the back LCD in live view.  I think I used it once and decided it was not for me.  I don’t know if we will see an S4 or if the line is finished or if there is one more model left in them.  Lenses are rarely in stock for all focal lengths and the most common used lens seems to be the 120 and the 70.

It could be nice to have a mirrorless from a maintenance standpoint and the ability to have an electronic shutter from some wide-open high-light shots, but it would seem that the flange distance would be built in for the existing lens, causing a rather odd body front.  I would not expect Leica to develop a new series of lenses and 3rd party adapters for the S system.  Leica has said on more than one occasion that there is still room in the S lenses for about 100mp, so why waste the design and development?

It seems like Leica is almost more of a just-in-time manufacturing for the S system, if they run out and someone wants one, they will make it.  And, I think lower volume runs increases cost.  I would love to see an S in the $10k to $12k range, so I have to a wait a year or two for the used market once they come out with a new body (LOL).

Just thoughts of an avid S user.

[Pieter12]

Not sure here, but wouldn't the exposed sensor of a mirrorless camera be more susceptible to gathering/attracting dust? One of my big bugaboos about digital cameras with interchangeable lenses--I hate having to clean the sensor.

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[Stuart Richardson]

16 hours ago, Pieter12 said:

Not sure here, but wouldn't the exposed sensor of a mirrorless camera be more susceptible to gathering/attracting dust? One of my big bugaboos about digital cameras with interchangeable lenses--I hate having to clean the sensor.

I find I clean my SL2 a lot less than I did my S006. It is easier too, as it is exposed. I think the movement of the mirror flapping around both draws in dust and blows it around, as well as having more transfer of lubricants and oil spots onto the sensor than I get with mirrorless, which does not have as much movement inside the lens mount...just stabilization. I think the stabilization also allows the sensor to shake itself and remove dust.I know it does in other cameras, but I have not bothered to look for the SL2. In my experience it does have dust at times, but it is easy to blow off.

As for an S4, I disagree with David about the Leica keeping the flange distance as is and not developing new lenses. If they do not do so, I think the camera will be DOA. In order to attract any new users at this point, I think a mirrorless S system would have to have faster, ultrasonic lens motors like the SL system so that it can have fast, quiet and accurate AF. I also think the new lenses would likely be smaller and lighter, in keeping with the smaller and lighter possibilities of mirrorless: ditching the mirror and all that space allows for easier, better lens design, particularly for wide angles. All that said, I am sure there was or is an internal discussion about what to do with the S system...either end it entirely, or redesign it. The S3 was clearly meant as an update for existing users to give them a final iteration of the OVF based S series. Other than the new sensor, it had no substantive changes over an eight year old camera, which itself was largely the same as a 16 year old camera. Even the HDMI standard in the S3 was so old that you could not record 4k externally, even though the sensor was capable of doing it internally. The HDMI version they used was out of date even when the S007 was released, but they just kept it rolling un-updated in the S3 too. The newest lens is ten years old. Obviously the S lenses are still optically great, but mechanically they have fallen behind and have limited progress in autofocus. Leica has to look to the future if they want a new S to succeed. I am sure that does include adapters to allow the existing S lenses to be used, but I think just kicking the can down the road with another iterative update is not going to do anything to make the S more viable to the broader market.

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Leica has to look to the future if they want a new S to succeed. I am sure that does include adapters to allow the existing S lenses to be used, but I think just kicking the can down the road with another iterative update is not going to do anything to make the S more viable to the broader market.

The only way I see an S4 coming-out is if they can fit the new mirrorless medium format camera's circuits into old-stock S body shells. Mind-you, that's not entirely unlikely. Every S  model yet has been an iteration of the original 2008 S2.

The way forward is with an all-new mirrorless medium format camera, which means a new lens mount. There will be an adapter for S lenses (Leica loves lens mount adapters!), but the camera will be much closer to the SLs than to the S3.

[Stuart Richardson]

10 hours ago, BernardC said:

The way forward is with an all-new mirrorless medium format camera, which means a new lens mount. There will be an adapter for S lenses (Leica loves lens mount adapters!), but the camera will be much closer to the SLs than to the S3.

I agree. That said, I think the mount itself has options: from entirely new to the the existing mount, but moved closer to the sensor. Obviously, the old S lenses would need an adapter tube, but there is no reason the existing S mount couldn't be placed closer to the sensor...it would save on tooling and allow them to use existing parts, but of course it would mean that the old lenses would not work on the new body without a spacer. This might be enough to nix the idea because a customer might get confused and not understand why their lens might mount to the new body, but not focus. In any case, it is at least possible. My ideal would be to have the L mount, as I have mentioned a few times in this thread, but that would be contingent on Leica being able to fit a medium format sensor and design lenses for it, which may not be possible. It certainly would be amazing to have a camera that could shoot S, SL, R, T and M lenses all with Leica's own adapters.

Edited March 21, 2023 by Stuart Richardson