S4 product recommendation

[prismstorm]

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1 hour ago, ZHNL said:

A few things stand out for me:

1. Best OVF shooting experience. with 70mm on it, you can shoot both eye open:) If you enjoy fast pace eyeball manual focus shooting, there is no better system.  I do, under good day light, I always reach S if I bring two system with me. Shooting modern MILC system with fancy Eye focus is a very boring experience. That is not the gear I want reach for fun. and viewing through EVF under high dynamic range condition is not an enjoyable experience at all no matter which EVF you are talking about. I just back from Oregon coast trip. Try shooting along the beach under sun with GFX100s/SL2 with S, you will know the difference.     

2. File quality from larger Sensor and Lens combination. The rendering is very smooth and consistent cross the focal length in the line. Never on your face sharpness, Corner is less stressed with low vignette. Distortion is low as well. The file is less 'digital' to my eyes. especially edit  S2/S006 portrait file, the mid tone is very subtle and delicate. I need spend a lot more time for other files to match 006 results under same condition if I try to. I don't really see much advantage of S system on landscape compare to others. As mentioned, shooting from tripod is not a good one compare to many competitions. Sharp and high dynamic range are cheap and everywhere nowadays. If you limit yourself comparing S for those, you miss the point IMHO. 

3. Ergo and menu control, This is the by far the best camera ever compare to anyone out there. No 20 pgs craps you need wade through.

4. build quality in term of "hardware" It is a joy to handle it.  

I may miss something and this might be subjective for sure, but that is all that matters to me anyway. 

I'll be getting my S3 tomorrow so I'll keep your points in mind and try to test them. I had Phase One XF and sold it after 6 months due to the poor ergonomics, center focusing point always back focusing, and having not much observable and meaningful IQ difference to my X1DII, in addition to overly neutral and unpleasant colors. I hope the ergonomics, handling and image quality of the S3 fares better than what the P1 did, since it actually has a 6% smaller sensor size than GFX / X1D and costs 3 times the price.  

[prismstorm]

6 hours ago, John Smith said:

Mount diameter lends itself to more flexible design. Shorter flange distance allows more light to get to the sensor (and less diffusion) which also affects lens design. Here is a Nikon engineer who talks about both. 

 

I just wonder given the niche of the S system, whether Leica will really redesign or relaunch all the existing S lenses (CS or non-CS), or whether they will just switch the S4 to mirrorless and continue to mount existing S lenses (originally designed for DSLR flange distance), meaning only the body becomes more compact. Given how small the user base is, it seems unlikely they will endeavor to redo the entire line of S lenses. It is a different story for Nikon Z since it is a brand new system as opposed to the decade-old S system with a mature line of native lenses.

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[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, aksclix said:

I think it’s a blunder but many have no problems forgiving that easily.. I don’t know how many were pissed when this whole thing started to happen whenever it did.. 

Clearly you were not around during the AF fiasco. People were very upset indeed, and lots of people left the system, especially when the replacement motors would also randomly fail...

[tom0511]

If I see how much slower S lenses focus on the SL2 compared to S I assume we will see new lenses if a mirrorless S comes up.

By the way I reallly do not find AF of S lenses on S007 slow at all. And with the OVF I feel this system is pretty responsive.

I am one of those who loves the accurancy of mirrorless/contrast detect focus, and loves it for controlling exposure,

But I still love optical viewfinders and the ability to see the real light, in real contrast, with real color in real time in the viewfinder. You get used to EVF and resolution is very good today, but shooting around in daylight with a S and a SL2 I still feel more connected to the szbject and more joy with the OVF. And easier to catch the moment and have a feeling, if you caught it or not.

[GiorgioNuvolari]

3 hours ago, prismstorm said:

I'll be getting my S3 tomorrow so I'll keep your points in mind and try to test them. I had Phase One XF and sold it after 6 months due to the poor ergonomics, center focusing point always back focusing, and having not much observable and meaningful IQ difference to my X1DII, in addition to overly neutral and unpleasant colors. I hope the ergonomics, handling and image quality of the S3 fares better than what the P1 did, since it actually has a 6% smaller sensor size than GFX / X1D and costs 3 times the price.  

This is great to read - please do share your experience if possible as such first hand perspectives are invaluable for me, and I am sure others who are considering entering into the S system! Thanks so much! GN

[Stuart Richardson]

Though this is slightly off topic, when it comes to viewfinders, I find it surprising that Leica has not led the way with hybrid viewfinders. It seems to me that the viewfinders in the X Pro series and X100 series could be improved upon and incorporated into Leicas, giving the best of both worlds. I understand it might be difficult to make them as bright as glass only finders or as high res as only EVF finders, but I do think it is a worth tradeoff. I use an X100F and love how I can swap back and forth depending on the lighting scenario. I am not talking as much the S here, more like the M or Q series. A Q with 35mm and a hybrid viewfinder would be my dream compact...

As for the S and lenses...I think if Leica releases a new mirrorless body, it seems logical that they will release at least one or two dedicated lenses for it to start. There have not been any new S lenses since 2014, and there would be an opportunity to create a more compact, higher performing prime lens. They could even fill a gap, but making it something like a 55-60mm. I know this is speculation, but I am just trying to think logically about the potential changes and status of the system. I think it is quite clear that the existing S lenses will be embraced and form the backbone of whatever new lens system might be introduced. It gives Leica the opportunity to take their time a bit more, in comparison to the L mount where there were no native lenses when the SL was introduced, and they were criticized for the slow rollout.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[Jeff S]

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3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Though this is slightly off topic, when it comes to viewfinders, I find it surprising that Leica has not led the way with hybrid viewfinders. It seems to me that the viewfinders in the X Pro series and X100 series could be improved upon and incorporated into Leicas, giving the best of both worlds. I understand it might be difficult to make them as bright as glass only finders or as high res as only EVF finders, but I do think it is a worth tradeoff. I use an X100F and love how I can swap back and forth depending on the lighting scenario. I am not talking as much the S here, more like the M or Q series. A Q with 35mm and a hybrid viewfinder would be my dream compact...

 

Not for lack of trying. As I recall, Stefan Daniel said in an interview that attempts with the M system resulted in unacceptable compromises to both approaches.  Rather than having the best of both worlds, the result was an inferior experience for each.  And that’s not good enough for Leica. He didn’t rule out a future hybrid approach if outcomes change.

Edit... here it is, from Red Dot Forum interview...

Pretty much since the M8 came out, I’d say. I think there’s always been other requests on the periphery of that like a hybrid viewfinder. This would be an enormous challenge given the depth restrictions, correct? 

Stefan: The greatest challenge would be to integrate the rangefinding function, the optical viewfinder and the EVF panel.

 

All in the space of 33.7mm?

Stefan: All in this space, yes. And being in every single aspect as good as it would be as a separate solution. And to be quite frank, we had a pre-development project to analyze that and it was a dead end. It would have been a so-so finder, a so-so rangefinder and a medium quality EVF panel. That’s why Fuji is a bit simpler because they don’t have the rangefinder part.

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2017/02/the-leica-m10-a-discussion-with-stefan-daniel-and-jesko-von-oeynhausen/

So, maybe Leica could have more success doing similar with a Q or other system without the RF concerns.

Jeff

Edited April 20, 2021 by Jeff S

[John Smith]

3 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Though this is slightly off topic, when it comes to viewfinders, I find it surprising that Leica has not led the way with hybrid viewfinders. It seems to me that the viewfinders in the X Pro series and X100 series could be improved upon and incorporated into Leicas, giving the best of both worlds. I understand it might be difficult to make them as bright as glass only finders or as high res as only EVF finders, but I do think it is a worth tradeoff. I use an X100F and love how I can swap back and forth depending on the lighting scenario. I am not talking as much the S here, more like the M or Q series. A Q with 35mm and a hybrid viewfinder would be my dream compact...

As for the S and lenses...I think if Leica releases a new mirrorless body, it seems logical that they will release at least one or two dedicated lenses for it to start. There have not been any new S lenses since 2014, and there would be an opportunity to create a more compact, higher performing prime lens. They could even fill a gap, but making it something like a 55-60mm. I know this is speculation, but I am just trying to think logically about the potential changes and status of the system. I think it is quite clear that the existing S lenses will be embraced and form the backbone of whatever new lens system might be introduced. It gives Leica the opportunity to take their time a bit more, in comparison to the L mount where there were no native lenses when the SL was introduced, and they were criticized for the slow rollout.

I disagree with @ZHNLabout flange distance and lens performance. I don't have time to look up all the articles I've read about the subject, but suffice it to say that the avalanche of new lenses and performance figures aren't due to fancy new manufacturing techniques.

I'd be surprised if Leica didn't introduce one or two new lenses to show off the technological advancements of a mirrorless S4. I wouldn't be surprised if it also introduced at the same time two adapters, one for existing S lenses and one for SL lenses. Peter Karbe has said the SL lenses are good past 100 MP so, as you said, the SL lenses could work the same way that TL lenses currently work on the SL2. 

People knock the SL system for "in your face sharpness," but they the bigger picture. Leica has introduced the SL Summicron line which represents cutting-edge lens performance for mirrorless design. If you're not into that kind of look, you can adapt older R lenses, S lenses, or M lenses. A mirrorless S4 would likely provide the same universe of choices. The only "downside" for present S users would be the change from an OVF to an EVF.

Two more things. One, I don't know if those who have complained about "in your face sharpness" have tried lenses beyond the SL Summicrons. I have the 50SL Lux and it is extraordinary, sharper than even the 50mm APO-M but buttery smooth in the out-of-focus areas. The 75mm Noctilux and 90mm Summilux (1.5) are the same way—gorgeously sharp and unsharp. I'd bet that Leica has some Summiluxes in mind once it finishes the Summicron line. 

Two, the S as it is now is a standalone product. If you look at how Leica is working now, it is all about platforms, and interchangeable platforms at that. It was a genius move by a small company with various product lines. A mirrorless S4 would benefit from reduced manufacturing complexities. Camera and lens designs would percolate through not just the TL and SL lines, but the S too. So you'd see S lenses with dual-focus motors, MTF graphs with off-the-charts contrast, etc. 

[Jeff S]

If the S system stays alive, and goes mirrorless, then the question for me would be whether it essentially becomes an SL(x) with a bigger sensor (physically bigger, MF, irrespective of MP), or if the camera would have other significant distinguishing design attributes/features. Some new lenses would be a given IMO.

Jeff

[aksclix]

I think the answer is probably going with removable viewfinders.. and a choice of OVF or EVF.. don’t know how they’ll manage it.. 907x has a removable OVF while the gfx has removable EVFs.. not sure if this even possible but this might be something worth looking into

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, John Smith said:

The only "downside" for present S users would be the change from an OVF to an EVF.

...and probably the loss of direct focus. The SL lenses have fly-by-wire focus, which is still very approximate and unsatisfying, despite firmware fixes.

I know that many will argue that the S line "needs" better AF, but part of the line's appeal is that it can be focused manually. In other words, they may end-up losing their unique selling point, chasing an audience that already owns Fuji/Hasselblad alternatives. I'm not saying that it can't be done, but I wonder if it's worth the effort, compared to offering more megapixels in the SL lineup (which will undoubtedly happen anyway).

[ynp]

I believe that Leica still own Sinar. And I wonder if they have already killed Sinar and there will not be any Leica/ Sinar modular cameras?

To be honest, I will not be interested in a MF Digital from Leica if it would be something similar to a cheaper Fuji. A professional modular solution similar to Sinar-M will make me open my wallet again. 
 

yevgeny

[ZHNL]

10 hours ago, aksclix said:

Mostly agree but it’s not a whole lot am afraid and it’s not for everybody.. if I were to have only one camera (medium format) it wouldn’t be the S.. I’ve always said that the X1D is the most beautifully designed camera but if size didn’t matter then I think the S body is second to none.. the ergonomics is surprisingly awesome for a big body.. 

that said, it’s extremely ridiculous for the body leather to be peeling off after moderate use.. it’s even more ridiculous having to send the camera overseas only to get a new grip installed.. how hard is it to have that part in stock and get the part shipped to your local dealer? Especially when it’s such a common problem with the S.. another major flaw is the need to have a motor replaced on S lenses.. again looking at a terrible turnaround time.. 

I think it’s a blunder but many have no problems forgiving that easily.. I don’t know how many were pissed when this whole thing started to happen whenever it did.. 

I agree with you about it is not for everybody. and as for will I choose this as my sole system question: it is really hard to say. As mentioned, it doesn't offer many convenient feature for more general shooting condition such: Flip LCD for tripod or low angle shooting, high resolution mode to improve DR and pixel count, full electronic shutter or EFCS (which are  quite important for high pixel density shooting in the future) and also low light focus or viewing include adding CPL or ND filter can be an issue as well. 

However, if I was forced to limit myself to one system, it could well be S. The big reason of photography for me is not how to achieve end result easily but do I enjoy the process and do I have full control from start to finish. In this regard, none exceed S for me personally. 

[ZHNL]

9 hours ago, prismstorm said:

I'll be getting my S3 tomorrow so I'll keep your points in mind and try to test them. I had Phase One XF and sold it after 6 months due to the poor ergonomics, center focusing point always back focusing, and having not much observable and meaningful IQ difference to my X1DII, in addition to overly neutral and unpleasant colors. I hope the ergonomics, handling and image quality of the S3 fares better than what the P1 did, since it actually has a 6% smaller sensor size than GFX / X1D and costs 3 times the price.  

I am envying you that you can make such a luxury purchase decision so easily  I am absolutely loving S system but I also agree it may not for everyone in term of usability. It would be nice you can use it a little more to make decision because as you said, it is 3X FUJI/HASSY but may not offer something you value in return. You may love it as much as I do or you may find nothing special about it but only you can find that out.

[Stuart Richardson]

36 minutes ago, ynp said:

I believe that Leica still own Sinar. And I wonder if they have already killed Sinar and there will not be any Leica/ Sinar modular cameras?

To be honest, I will not be interested in a MF Digital from Leica if it would be something similar to a cheaper Fuji. A professional modular solution similar to Sinar-M will make me open my wallet again. 
 

yevgeny

I don't think they will go in this direction...it is even more niche than the S system is already, and I think that kind of supremely technical, studio based solution is more taken care of by Phase One. I suspect Sinar will just continue as a somewhat vestigial arm selling view camera and studio components for the few that need them.

I think if the S system survives, it will be because they can convince SL and M users to upgrade, as well as steal a few users away from Fuji and Hasselblad (and Phase One). I think it unlikely that they could attract enough users by making a Sinar M camera, a camera which sold in even lower quantities than the S.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Stuart Richardson

[ZHNL]

2 hours ago, John Smith said:

I disagree with @ZHNLabout flange distance and lens performance. I don't have time to look up all the articles I've read about the subject, but suffice it to say that the avalanche of new lenses and performance figures aren't due to fancy new manufacturing techniques.

I'd be surprised if Leica didn't introduce one or two new lenses to show off the technological advancements of a mirrorless S4. I wouldn't be surprised if it also introduced at the same time two adapters, one for existing S lenses and one for SL lenses. Peter Karbe has said the SL lenses are good past 100 MP so, as you said, the SL lenses could work the same way that TL lenses currently work on the SL2. 

People knock the SL system for "in your face sharpness," but they the bigger picture. Leica has introduced the SL Summicron line which represents cutting-edge lens performance for mirrorless design. If you're not into that kind of look, you can adapt older R lenses, S lenses, or M lenses. A mirrorless S4 would likely provide the same universe of choices. The only "downside" for present S users would be the change from an OVF to an EVF.

Two more things. One, I don't know if those who have complained about "in your face sharpness" have tried lenses beyond the SL Summicrons. I have the 50SL Lux and it is extraordinary, sharper than even the 50mm APO-M but buttery smooth in the out-of-focus areas. The 75mm Noctilux and 90mm Summilux (1.5) are the same way—gorgeously sharp and unsharp. I'd bet that Leica has some Summiluxes in mind once it finishes the Summicron line. 

Two, the S as it is now is a standalone product. If you look at how Leica is working now, it is all about platforms, and interchangeable platforms at that. It was a genius move by a small company with various product lines. A mirrorless S4 would benefit from reduced manufacturing complexities. Camera and lens designs would percolate through not just the TL and SL lines, but the S too. So you'd see S lenses with dual-focus motors, MTF graphs with off-the-charts contrast, etc. 

No hard feeling. We don't need agree each other for personal preference. I never used new lux as they are too expensive for what they bring I feel. I have Nikon 105e which can achieve even shallower DOF with exceptional sharpness. The rendering is gorgeous as well. Have you seen latest Canon R, Sony Alpha, Sigma or Nikon Z glasses, almost all of them are super sharp with low color error. 

Again, I feel you overrated sharpness value in final image. You see those detail only you zoom in or closely inspect part of image to feel the benefit. To me, the overall rendering and look of image are more valuable. It is not like no other lenses as good as S but it is just rare to have a set of glasses consistently show this treat I value highly effortless make the S system special to me. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by ZHNL

[aksclix]

18 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think they will go in this direction...it is even more niche than the S system is already, and I think that kind of supremely technical, studio based solution is more taken care of by Phase One. I suspect Sinar will just continue as a somewhat vestigial arm selling view camera and studio components for the few that need them.

I think if the S system survives, it will be because they can convince SL and M users to upgrade, as well as steal a few users away from Fuji and Hasselblad (and Phase One). I think it unlikely that they could attract enough users by making a Sinar M camera, a camera which sold in even lower quantities than the S.

907x is modular too and it doesn’t scare away anybody for that reason actually.. lacks weather sealing which is a bummer.. there was a GFX modular system rumored which looks pretty neat and simple enough actually 

 

[aksclix]

34 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I don't think they will go in this direction...it is even more niche than the S system is already, and I think that kind of supremely technical, studio based solution is more taken care of by Phase One. I suspect Sinar will just continue as a somewhat vestigial arm selling view camera and studio components for the few that need them.

I think if the S system survives, it will be because they can convince SL and M users to upgrade, as well as steal a few users away from Fuji and Hasselblad (and Phase One). I think it unlikely that they could attract enough users by making a Sinar M camera, a camera which sold in even lower quantities than the S.

But I agree that those systems are too technical and doesn’t make sense to go in that direction

[ynp]

40 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

think if the S system survives, it will be because they can convince SL and M users to upgrade, as well as steal a few users away from Fuji and Hasselblad (and Phase One). I think it unlikely that they could attract enough users by making a Sinar M camera, a camera which sold in even lower quantities than the S.

Stuart, I agree, the Sinar-M was a very niche camera.

When I talk about a modular S camera, I am talking about an S4 as a Live View Digital Back, that can be used with almost all  of the Leica Lenses,  with a view camera with movements and on a Repro Stand in a Multishot mode. The shorter flange distance will allow to use the S and other MF lenses with movements. I think that Leica is in a unique position to be able to  integrate the all the pieces together  

I understand that it will be too complicated for the majority of Leica users. And it won’t be affordable for the majority to pros. But I am sure that Leica will have to present something unique in the S4 to make me spend another $50k for another system. 
 

yevgeny 

Edited April 20, 2021 by ynp

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[Stuart Richardson]

Yes, I agree with that. The SL2 is certainly a lot better to use as repro camera or on a view camera than the S3, as the S3 has so much larger focal flange distance and also an older style live view implementation than the SL2. So certainly the S4, if it is mirrorless, will be a more useful camera in these operations. I have both the SL2 and S3, and I have used the SL2 for artwork reproduction and book scanning etc, as it is just much better designed for it, as least for what I am doing.