Beginner's Guide to Shooting with M10 - Kindergarten Post

[MikeMyers]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, Marac said:

The best advice I can offer is to shoot in FULL manual mode, use the exposure meter and try not to do too much in PP afterwards.

The M10 is a stunning camera that will deliver gorgeous pictures with very little effort, concentrate on exposure and making these settings by yourself, the exposure meter will help you (kind of) to get the image you want.

Happy shooting.

First, I agree with you - that's pretty much my plan.

Second, yes I bought a Sekonic L-398A Studio Deluxe III meter a few years back, and am in the middle of re-learning how to use it.  Just like in the 1960's.....

Despite what I read in that long article by Thorsten Overgaard, I have no plans to buy a color meter.

Regarding PP, if I shoot DNG, either I do the PP, or my computer does it.  I now have lot of image editors, but the one that I enjoy using the most is DxO Photo Lab 4.  It brings out detail in my images that I didn't realize was there, and it has an excellent tool (they say it's the best) to minimize noise, without damaging the image quality.

Finally, it's important to me (even if it might be wasting my time?) to learn how to use the camera the way Leica designed it to be used.  I won't always have my Sekonic with me, and now that I've hopefully figured it out, I'd like to be able to use the Aperture Priority method.  Despite the high price, and all the hype, the bottom line is that the M10 is just a tool, just like a wrench is a tool for a mechanic.  It's "me" that has to create worthwhile images.  I try to make my photos look the way I saw them, as I took the photo - and while I'm no Ansel Adams, I love the way he could "see" the image he wanted, capture a negative with the data he needed, and manipulate it to create what he had imagined.

(....but before that, just like with any tool, I need to learn how to use it.)

Thank you.  I'll try.

[MikeMyers]

3 hours ago, jaapv said:

I think, Mike, that you have to have a look at the postprocessing of this image. The the boats and jetty look  overprocessed and are strangely blue/cyan.

I think you're likely correct.  Will start over again.  I'm still learning PhotoLab 4; maybe I over-did it.

This is the original image.  PhotoLab4 applied a pre-set, and then I used their re-size tool to make it smaller so I could post it here.  (I need to use some kind of editor to get from DNG to a JPG.  If there's a way to do so, I could upload the untouched original image here, but I don't know how to do that.)

Oops, can't post until tomorrow I guess - I tried to re-send my image again, a little larger, but still within the limit, but now I get the maximum size error message every time I try to upload.  I guess the uploads I deleted still count.  Will upload an image later, once I figure out what's wrong, or wait for tomorrow.

 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[MikeMyers]

I tried again in a new reply.

I've been trying to upload a 1.95 meg image, but that wasn't working.  This image is supposedly 464k.  

Anyway, this is the original image, reduced in size.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

And this is with the "Clear View" option activated, at the default value, before I got carried away....

I should have stopped here, and not over-do things.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited November 14, 2020 by MikeMyers

[jaapv]

It is not software I would use - Auto, colour balance on the building on the right and some contrast, in PS-ACR  Basically AWB got fooled by the sunset colours.

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Jeff S]

White balance is an issue for both posted pics.  See especially post#32, with obviously sickly green/yellow tint, and Steve’s (250swb) correction in post#38. Manual settings should at least force one to see and judge.

Jeff

[250swb]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

90% of the time setting Auto White Balance on the camera will do the job and leave only slight tweaks to do in post processing, if any. I hope the OP has his camera set to AWB.... There is no need for a colour meter.

Edited November 14, 2020 by 250swb

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is not software I would use - Auto, colour balance on the building on the right and some contrast, in PS-ACR  Basically AWB got fooled by the sunset colours.

I think my eyes also got fooled by the sunset colors.  

I used the "eye dropper" to pick the color of the white building at the right, and that made a very noticeable change.  Based on your suggestion, I then raised the contrast slightly.

Looking at your image, it's "brighter" than what I remember seeing.  The sun had already set, and it was starting to get dark.  The photo I took maybe a minute after this one had lost much of the orange in the sky.

The image you posted seems to be "brighter" than what I thought I saw.  Maybe not - maybe it's what I "saw" in my mind as I took the photo.  I need to think about this some more.....

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

6 minutes ago, 250swb said:

90% of the time setting Auto White Balance on the camera will do the job and leave only slight tweaks to do in post processing, if any. I hope the OP has his camera set to AWB.... There is no need for a colour meter.

Oops, white balance was still left at "daylight", as I was shooting outdoors.  I need to remember each time I'm going to use the camera to check the settings, and I've also got to remember from now on to leave the default setting for white balance t "AUTO".

Maybe that's something that also affected the sunset picture, and had it been set to AUTO perhaps that would have made the colors more realistic.

Thanks guys.....    maybe I'll be able to put all my other cameras away, and use the M10 for just about all my photography.  Not sure how well it would do with a 200mm lens which I sometimes need - I have an 80-200 for my Nikons, which I use quite a bit.  That would probably mean removing my Leica thumb rest, so I could put the Visoflex on top, but the thumb rest is a huge help to me in holding the camera still.

For general use, the only camera I now have out is the M10, and the only lens I expect to be using (most of the time) is 50mm.  I need to simplify my life until I get it right, and do it often enough that it once again becomes "second nature", so I can "do" without "thinking".

[Jeff S]

13 minutes ago, 250swb said:

90% of the time setting Auto White Balance on the camera will do the job and leave only slight tweaks to do in post processing, if any. I hope the OP has his camera set to AWB.... There is no need for a colour meter.

But, as with your earlier point, it’s best to learn the underlying fundamentals before choosing settings.  It’s not clear that he understands effects of color temperatures and corresponding camera WB settings, etc.
 

This might help him...

https://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/white-balance.htm

I generally avoid AWB and use fixed temps, depending on lighting situation, for a more consistent PP starting point.  Whatever works...as long as one knows why.

Jeff

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

It is not software I would use.....

Back when I purchased Lightroom, it was MINE, and I used it a lot.  This is on a Mac.  Now I can only rent Photoshop, and pay for it for the rest of my life.  Ditto for Lightroom.  I probably have four or five software programs for image editing.  PhotoLab is the one that I'm using now.  I guess that's something I should post in a different thread.  Have you tried Photo Lab?  There's a free trial, and it's now up to version 4.  Watch the videos and see if might be useful for you.  On the other hand, if I knew Photoshop as well as I think you do, I'd probably continue using it.  As for me, I switched to Adobe Lightroom several years ago, bought a copy (which I still own), but am now using the rent by the month plan for both Lightroom and Photoshop.

[jaapv]

Well, it works for me. The money I spent in the past on successive  versions of  PS plus  updates would  easily have paid for the subscription far beyond my natural lit. 

[MikeMyers]

1 hour ago, Jeff S said:

White balance is an issue for both posted pics.  See especially post#32, with obviously sickly green/yellow tint, and Steve’s (250swb) correction in post#38. Manual settings should at least force one to see and judge.

Jeff

Something else I have learned - always include something that is white (or gray) and use that to correct white balance.  Here's the second photo - the only change was white balance, to hopefully get rid of the sickly green/yellow tint:

 

I think my grade for this Leica 101 course is a "D" at best.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[MikeMyers]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

Mike, in the kindest possible way here is an example of what you aren't seeing

Thanks!!!  

I didn't "see".

Nobody here has to be "kind" to me.  If you think I screwed up, or don't have a clue, please do tell me, without mincing words.

It's no excuse, but I'm obviously spoiled by having my Nikons and my iPhone fix things like this automatically, without telling me.

I'm also doing a lousy job of seeing the incorrect image on my screen, and not figuring out how to fix it, or to even recognize that it needs to be fixed.

 

Many of my photos have been posted in my SmugMug gallery, "m.smugmug.com".  Most were taken with one of my Nikon cameras, or my Fuji cameras, both of which correct things behind my back.  The Leica (correctly) shows me the image that I took, and leaves it for me to fix.   I've gotten very lazy.  .....and all of that is part of why I wanted to get back to my "roots" growing up with a Contax II and then a Nikon SP, and then a Leica M2.  I'm pretty stubborn though, and eventually will get this sorted out.  Maybe in my next post I'll mention "First Grade" instead of "Kindergarten".     

[jaapv]

And this?  

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[jaapv]

3 minutes ago, MikeMyers said:

I'm also doing a lousy job of seeing the incorrect image on my screen, and not figuring out how to fix it, or to even recognize that it needs to be fixed.

Calibrating your screen is a good start...  I still recall, nearly twenty years back, processing about 100 images from my Canon 10D, and getting all prints back - bright green  

[MikeMyers]

7 hours ago, 250swb said:

Just for the record you can set user limits to both minimum shutter speed and maximum ISO that could allow you to have them both set to Auto in normal shooting conditions, then you'll get optimum shooting speed, so not to low, and Auto ISO will give the lowest ISO for the conditions and in relation to the other settings. 

But that aside I'm not entirely sure you understand what effect on the image each setting has and why and when you'd prioritise one over the other. So if you don't want to set shutter speed and ISO to Auto you'd better figure out priorities and when you'd want f/11 and not f/4, or 1/250th second and not 1/8th second, or 100 ISO and not 10,000 ISO. This is easy enough to understand if you learn about them before garbling terms like 'Aperture Priority'. It's similar to learning the guitar, do it badly to start with and it becomes harder to do right later on by forming too many bad habits and things you've short cut and not seen the relevance of. Basic knowledge will help even with using your fully your automatic cameras in knowing when to override them.

I used to know and understand those things, but over time I've been leaving it for my Nikons, Fuji's, iPhones, etc., to do for me.  Get the camera close (I never use auto mode, but a lot of functions are automated), get close enough to what I want, and the images come out technically quite nice.  I spent just about all my time on composition and timing.

Once again, a Leica brings me back to harsh reality of the world, and not knowing better, I handicapped it by leaving things set incorrectly.

 

I do know and understand the things you mentioned, but you'd never know it from the photos I posted.  99% of my attention went into trying to understand the Leica, which is what led to posting this thread, as I was getting rather confusabobbled.  

That's also the reason I didn't want to leave the shutter speed dial set at (A) all the time, as I want to review the three things involved in exposure every time, before taking photographs.

Back in the 1960's, I had to select the appropriate film (with an appropriate ASA speed), and juggle shutter speed vs aperture to find an appropriate combination.  I am now way, WAY out of practice.   .......and please don't ask me how many out of focus images I had to delete, because I'm so used to my cameras doing that for me!!!!

[MikeMyers]

9 hours ago, Dennis said:

IMHO, my advice is don't do it. Teach yourself to shoot absolutely everything in manual, for the sake of a more controlled, and sometimes even better result. You are in full control; you make decisions, not the camera. I always thought I can't understand why people use something in Auto. I can see the benefits, the speedy process. But it looks like one settles for commitments, not for excellence. When you shoot manual, you decide absolutely everything, your photos with the same camera settings will look the same. I shoot manual even WB.

If one works in AP or Auto ISO or both, in the same scene, you can have very different EXIF, and you can have a picture of 100 ISO, but it can be 1600 too. Which will give me a completely different IQ and DR. You never know.
Try for a while to use only these three ISO values: 200-800-3200, they are my ISO trinity. ISO is the first thing you set, and you don't change it because you are committed to a scene, a photo, a purpose. Then you decide how much context you want in your scene (set manually by aperture = DOP). Once you have these two values, you don't need to change them to keep shooting the same scene, right? You just adjust, if necessary, the SS. For example if you move your camera to another direction with different light.  Does it make sense? WIth practice and practice, you can work freer.
To mastering the manual, you need to work manual only for a while, commit to a long-term deal. And shoot a lot. And I can tell you that you will be faster and maybe even more efficient than some auto modes. Think with the same philosophy of AF VS MF. Which do you think is faster? 😬

And most importantly, you can enjoy and appreciate more photography and the magic that makes the exposure. It's about to paint with light, right? And I assure you that the same-old sunny 16 rule, is still applying nowadays. Oh yeah! And it works perfectly.

My two cents

 

Congratulations - you have not only described my goals very well, you've simplified them somewhat.  What you wrote is what I have really wanted to do.

Before "doing" though, I needed to figure out how the camera works, and go through all the menu settings, at least to understand what they do, and why they are there.

I highlighted part of what you wrote in bold face.  I do those things usually, but in random order.  The way you've described it the more organized it now seems.  Sounds like a good habit to get into.  In all my playing around with the camera yesterday, I only took one photo essentially following what you just described.  I'll post it down below, as my last image for this thread.  It's the best I know how to do things, as you have described, carefully setting everything the way I thought it should be done, from ISO 100/200 to a large aperture to limit depth of field, to whatever shutter speed the camera wanted.  It's a photo of some pipes and valves.  Let me know what you think, once I get it uploaded (assuming I can still upload another image today).

 

Two cents?  Sounds more like $100 to me.    :-)  Thank you!

[MikeMyers]

11 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Below your post, this appears....

 

Have camera, will travel....

http://www.sgrid.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?26-Photography

That is ancient.  Anyone know how I can find it, so I can delete or change it?  I've been searching with no luck.  I think it was called a "footer" way back when......

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[MikeMyers]

29 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Calibrating your screen is a good start...  I still recall, nearly twenty years back, processing about 100 images from my Canon 10D, and getting all prints back - bright green  

Hmm, I've got a three year old 21" iMac and a many-years-older high resolution ASUS monitor.

I'll see if it has a calibration procedure, or if I should buy a Spyder which used to be the best way of calibrating a screen.  Maybe there is something newer and better?