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TrickyMrT

M10 Upgreade to M10-R or not?

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Hello all,

I´m using my M10 since it was released and it was my first M camera. Now I'm thinking about upgrading to M10-R but I´m not sure if I should do it or not.

What are your thoughts about upgrading or not?

 

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Only upgrade if you need to - what feature of the new camera would improve your photography and what not? And if there should be any upgrade reason, is it worth the money?. Please bear in mind that more megapixels do not automatically lead to better images, in fact for most "standard" use even 24 MP is considerable overkill.

Unless, of course you suffer from the monkey-genetic defect that we all have, and that is reaching for the next shiny fruit before we have eaten the present one. In photography it is called GAS...

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If your goal is the better photography, then most likely you do not need the new camera. Your money may be better spend on the lens if you do not have everyone you needed yet. 

If your goal is the most sexy camera, then by all mean do upgrade. 

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I upgraded from the M10 to the M10-R, and I'm glad I did.  No doubt you'll get a lot of different opinions on this, but for me, the increased pixels, the higher dynamic range, and other features carried over from the M10-P (i.e., quieter shutter) were all factors that made the trade-in worthwhile.  For me, the M10-R is pretty much the "perfect" digital Leica M.

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I see a big difference in print quality with the M10-R at 17x22/16x24 since I can now print at a native resolution of 360 ppi rather than the 240 ppi the 24 MP sensor limited me to and which always creates artifacts. I’m able to shoot the M10-R handheld at 1/30th with my 35 FLE without any noteworthy repercussions. All of my lenses seem to perform better as well; these include the 21 SEM Asph, 28 Cron Asph v2, 35 Lux Asph FLE and 50 Lux ASPH. They all resolve beautifully and for reasons I can’t explain, images seem more life-like. Prints are very very close to MF quality. So for someone like myself that has standardized on 17x22/16x24 inch prints, I will never go back to 24 MP. The trade of my M10 to M10-R was worth every penny, and in fact I’m now eyeing the M10M as a result. 

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I'm so happy about the positive feedback.

I was struggling if the upgrades would be useful or if I should wait on the M11.

 

I'm also afraid of losing a good old friend. The M10 was always working very well for me.

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My M10 served me well for three years and many many reportage trips. Never let me down. So I can understand. My M10-R has been perfect in every way thus far. No electronic bugs and the RF is spot-on with all my lenses. 

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9 minutes ago, TrickyMrT said:

I'm so happy about the positive feedback.

I was struggling if the upgrades would be useful or if I should wait on the M11.

 

I'm also afraid of losing a good old friend. The M10 was always working very well for me.

Definition of GAS: happier to spend money on new gear than to receive confirmation that your current gear, which has “always worked very well” for you, is perfectly fine, and that you can save your money. Do you even print big like Jeff Plomley?  That wasn’t mentioned as a critical need in your initial post.  Here’s a spoiler alert... the M11 will offer even more of something, only to be superseded by the M11R, and so on.

Jeff

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21 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Definition of GAS: happier to spend money on new gear than to receive confirmation that your current gear, which has “always worked very well” for you, is perfectly fine, and that you can save your money. Do you even print big like Jeff Plomley?  That wasn’t mentioned as a critical need in your initial post.  Here’s a spoiler alert... the M11 will offer even more of something, only to be superseded by the M11R, and so on.

Jeff

Your post makes me think, if I should keep my M10

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2 hours ago, jplomley said:

...and in fact I’m now eyeing the M10M as a result. 

Because of the b&w workflow or the effectively higher resolution than the R?  Otherwise, the lack of color channel control seems a trade off.

Jeff

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3 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Because of the b&w workflow or the effectively higher resolution than the R?  Otherwise, the lack of color channel control seems a trade off.

Jeff

Hey Jeff, I used to shoot B&W film in 4x5 and then reverse process it to a transparency followed by a drum scan, and I always loved the focussed nature of recording just shades of gray, and then working those scans up in PS. Lighting and composition just become that much more important in the absence of color to offset any deficiencies in image content, and therein lies the value; it imposes a somewhat forced mental discipline to strip down a scene to its bare essentials, and I think this really challenges our creative side. I find myself fancying this once again, rather than "after the fact" as it were when recording a color image. The effectively higher resolution of the M10M is a nice bonus, but its really the constraint imposed by imaging with B&W only that I want to experience once again. Based on prints from the M10-R and my SL2, I suspect the M10M might well represent an entirely new level of image quality, that may even come close to those drum scans of days gone by, at least for the 17x22/16x24 sizes that I enjoy printing at.

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13 minutes ago, jplomley said:

Hey Jeff, I used to shoot B&W film in 4x5 and then reverse process it to a transparency followed by a drum scan, and I always loved the focussed nature of recording just shades of gray, and then working those scans up in PS. Lighting and composition just become that much more important in the absence of color to offset any deficiencies in image content, and therein lies the value; it imposes a somewhat forced mental discipline to strip down a scene to its bare essentials, and I think this really challenges our creative side. I find myself fancying this once again, rather than "after the fact" as it were when recording a color image. The effectively higher resolution of the M10M is a nice bonus, but its really the constraint imposed by imaging with B&W only that I want to experience once again. Based on prints from the M10-R and my SL2, I suspect the M10M might well represent an entirely new level of image quality, that may even come close to those drum scans of days gone by, at least for the 17x22/16x24 sizes that I enjoy printing at.

I understand, having been a b/w shooter since the late 70’s, eventually building 4 darkrooms beginning in the 80’s for processing and printing 35mm, medium and large format (4x5).  After fully transitioning to digital in ‘09, I added color to my repertoire, but continue to concentrate on b/w, and still do my own printing, custom matting and framing. (I’ve also collected vintage silver prints for decades, so I appreciate a fine b/w print, but that’s a longer story.)
 

A few years back, to recapture the ‘zen’ of an entirely b/w workflow, I bought a mint used M Monochrom (they are still available with new sensor and warranty for $3500-$4k). The print results are superb, naturally when I do my job well (ImagePrint provides excellent scaling without artifacts at my modest print sizes... max paper size 17x22). The trade off, as I mentioned, is the inability to use color channels in post, which has spoiled me when converting color digital to b/w. I don’t feel the need to add an M10M or replace the MM, particularly given my modest print sizes.  The M10 also still serves me well, and I’ve been delighted with the SL2, which was added late last year to complement M use.  
 

We live in a time of great choices.  Enjoy... and keep us posted.

Jeff
 

 

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I'd wait for the M11. My wild guess is that the M11 may go back to 24MP again (with a new sensor), otherwise the R doesn't make sense in my view (provided the M11 is coming next year). 

Edited by WvE

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I am very happy so far with my M10. I was thinking of buying an M10-R, but then I decided to get a new M10.

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For some reason I never bonded with the M10, and 'reverted' to an M262. But I think the M10R is the best Leica I have had and while I like the touch-screen and quiet(er) shutter, it's the resolution and COLOUR that I find so satisfying. And that highlight recovery!

Edited by microview

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On 9/9/2020 at 2:00 PM, TrickyMrT said:

Do you think 4000$ is a fair price for an used M10?

That's is a good price for a private sale. I traded my M10 in on the M10-R. I got $3,500 for the trade as the camera was in pristine condition with all of the packaging and accessories. I made my deal with the Leica SoHo NYC store. I have purchased a number of cameras and lenses there so I was a know quantity to the dealer.

Regards,
Bud James

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1 hour ago, budjames said:

That's is a good price for a private sale. I traded my M10 in on the M10-R. I got $3,500 for the trade as the camera was in pristine condition with all of the packaging and accessories. I made my deal with the Leica SoHo NYC store. I have purchased a number of cameras and lenses there so I was a know quantity to the dealer.

Regards,
Bud James

Wow I didn’t realize you can only get $3.5k for a mint M10.  Thanks for the info.  My M10 is also mint and it is worth more to me than $3.5k.  That price gap ($5k) doesn’t make the upgrade worth it to me in my opinion.

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