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M10 Upgreade to M10-R or not?


TrickyMrT

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On 9/15/2020 at 9:08 PM, Tailwagger said:

 

Almost. If M11 shows next year it will indeed be an SDMR [same damn M10 R] sensor 🤣  

My wild guess is that the M11 will not have the SDMR sensor. It will be an improved sensor but with 24-ish MP again. That is, if the M11 arrives with the next 6 months or so. The M10-R would otherwise be a mere transitory camera (or interim Pope). Perhaps there will be a M11-R too.  

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Sorry I am late to this thread, but IMHO the M10-R sensor is a great improvement over the the M10.  It is not the megapixels, it is the way it captures.  It isn't just improved DR;  the highlight capture is superb. which is a big improvement (fewer blown highlights) while maintaining very good shadow detail.  I expose for the highlights anyhow but this camera produces files thatr are easy to work with in ACR, and it has the quiet shutter of the 10-P.   Contrary to one post above, I see no difference in sharpness. I have zero regrets having traded in a M-10P.   But really, could one say it is a necessary upgrade?  No more than any other M upgrade.  GAS, yes, but GAS is a non-fatal addiction.

The disadvantage of course is file size and the need for storage space and perhaps more computing power  (so far, my seven year old quad core Mac Pro is quite adequate).

 

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1 hour ago, AlanJW said:

Sorry I am late to this thread, but IMHO the M10-R sensor is a great improvement over the the M10.  It is not the megapixels, it is the way it captures.  It isn't just improved DR;  the highlight capture is superb. which is a big improvement (fewer blown highlights) while maintaining very good shadow detail.  I expose for the highlights anyhow but this camera produces files thatr are easy to work with in ACR, and it has the quiet shutter of the 10-P.   Contrary to one post above, I see no difference in sharpness. I have zero regrets having traded in a M-10P.   But really, could one say it is a necessary upgrade?  No more than any other M upgrade.  GAS, yes, but GAS is a non-fatal addiction.

The disadvantage of course is file size and the need for storage space and perhaps more computing power  (so far, my seven year old quad core Mac Pro is quite adequate).

 

Do you find any significant difference in color rendering (accounting for your profiling/workflow) compared to the M10-P? It’s not clear that the S3-derived sensor in the M10-R also included a refined color array (with its touted improvements in the red channel and skin tones).  Or more subtle tonal control (beyond opening shadows...including mid-tones) with b&w conversions? I’m primarily asking about prints.

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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1 hour ago, AlanJW said:

Sorry I am late to this thread, but IMHO the M10-R sensor is a great improvement over the the M10.  It is not the megapixels, it is the way it captures.  It isn't just improved DR;  the highlight capture is superb. which is a big improvement (fewer blown highlights) while maintaining very good shadow detail. 

AFAICT, this has been the general consensus of virtually everyone here, myself included, who has shot with the original M10 and had the opportunity to use an M10-R for any reasonable period of time. The differences in rendering are immediately evident. 

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21 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Do you find any significant difference in color rendering (accounting for your profiling/workflow) compared to the M10-P? It’s not clear that the S3-derived sensor in the M10-R also included a refined color array (with its touted improvements in the red channel and skin tones).  Or more subtle tonal control (beyond opening shadows...including mid-tones) with b&w conversions? I’m primarily asking about prints.

Jeff

Jeff, I have only made a few prints so I cannot answer with precision.  I did a (dual souce) color profile with an XRite colorchecker but if there are differences between that and the native Adobe profile I can't see them.  I use ACR and PSCC.  I have not seen any notable differences in my work-flow (but I also do not consider myself an expert in ACR or PSCC). Skin tones are okay to my eye, but "correct" skin tones are very subjective.  I also do B&W conversions with Nik Silverefex 2 and have been very pleased with them, especially the fairly new Nik preset called "More Silver".  Very film-like results.  Hope this is useful.  Maybe someone more expert can provide more.

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35 minutes ago, AlanJW said:

Jeff, I have only made a few prints so I cannot answer with precision.  I did a (dual souce) color profile with an XRite colorchecker but if there are differences between that and the native Adobe profile I can't see them.  I use ACR and PSCC.  I have not seen any notable differences in my work-flow (but I also do not consider myself an expert in ACR or PSCC). Skin tones are okay to my eye, but "correct" skin tones are very subjective.  I also do B&W conversions with Nik Silverefex 2 and have been very pleased with them, especially the fairly new Nik preset called "More Silver".  Very film-like results.  Hope this is useful.  Maybe someone more expert can provide more.

The crux of my question, Alan, was whether you noticed significant improvements in color/tonality after moving from the M10-P to the M10-R (given whatever workflow you employ).  It seems that you’re happy with the latter, but I’m not sensing that improvements in these specific characteristics jump out to you (albeit with limited print experience).  Am I interpreting that wrong?
 

Jeff

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31 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The crux of my question, Alan, was whether you noticed significant improvements in color/tonality after moving from the M10-P to the M10-R (given whatever workflow you employ).  It seems that you’re happy with the latter, but I’m not sensing that improvements in these specific characteristics jump out to you (albeit with limited print experience).  Am I interpreting that wrong?
 

Jeff

If there were "improvements", I would have a hard time identifying them.  The M10-P files were extremely good.  The upgrade is IMHO a "want" more than a "need."  But I have never let "not needing it" stop me from buying something I want.  Luckily, I have a wife who has understood for the last 53 years and just shrugs.

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2 hours ago, AlanJW said:

If there were "improvements", I would have a hard time identifying them.  The M10-P files were extremely good.  The upgrade is IMHO a "want" more than a "need."  But I have never let "not needing it" stop me from buying something I want.  Luckily, I have a wife who has understood for the last 53 years and just shrugs.

Sounds like through persistence you have forced her into submission.  Good job!

I speak only of your buying habits of course.

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If down the road Leica does offer an upgrade for a M10 to a M10-R then I might, might, be interested. I did the M10 to M10-P upgrade and I've been happy enough with that and the extra year of warranty is a nice thing.......But I've zero interest in trading up to a R at this time. I'm sure that there's upsides to the increased pixel count and the reported improved DR but for my usage the present costs of swapping-up aren't worth the consideration and what my P produces is quite lovely and satisfying. I also don't need "fatter" files, already with the M10-M, ( a camera that I do seriously appreciate ), I find myself shooting in a more conservative way because of the files sizes, but then I have never been one to go out and shoot hundreds of images a day, "spray and pray". I still shoot as if there's 36 exposures in the camera.....( I did succumb to GAS in buying a new M-A last month and I'm really pleased with that purchase, happy to have spent the $$$ on that rather than the cost of switching up to a R )........I've also yet to see in these forums any image that jumps out to me as being worth the extra expense of the upgrade to a R, mostly very pedestrian images that frankly could have been made with any a current, and much cheaper, piece of gear irrespective of manufacture and pixel count..........That said the Monochrom M9M image thread continues to please me, there's a few truly excellent photographers there, ( you know who I refer to I hope ), proving again that it's the timing, the good eye and not the price of the gear or it's specifications that counts every time.

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On 9/12/2020 at 3:27 AM, agencal said:

I had m10 before and now m10r.I use 50mm apo and zeiss biogon c 35mm f2.8.After used and tried all current m line i found these to be the sharpest of all.What changed after m10r?

M10’s per pixel sharpness was better.There is more resolution for R but not sharper.You need to increase sharpness slider at least to 65 to get the same amount of ğer pixel sharpness(40 is default) at photpshop.

M10 has that well known clearence which makes the obkects pop.I don’t see it with R.Also M10 is contrastier.Maybe increased dynamic range makes it look less contrasty becouse of increased shadow detail.

Awb of M10 is better especially at shadow places.Awb of R makes a greenish color cast to every file at shade places.

So if you need more resolution and like to give some time to raw conversion then cropable size of R files are good for you.Nothing more special.

That cannot be the case. My experience with SL to SL2 is just the reverse. Else all camera makers must be bonkers to produce higher mega pixel cameras. What will happen indeed is it needs a faster processor to deal with more data that takes away processing power of AF on Continuous shootings unless a more powerful processor is used.

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After trading in M10 for M10R I notice improvement in tonality, and also better metering -- or it just ends up better because the highlights are preserved.  This is a no-brainer and a must for M10 unless you want the loud click for models as Jono mentioned.  The M10 was my first Leica since its release in 2017 and I was sad to part with it but the replacement was like a reincarnation except quiet and high-res and better DR.  What's there to discuss compadres?  As @LeicaR10 says, time to reach for that black Amex!

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Am 26.9.2020 um 12:30 schrieb budjames:

Before a new M11, I am hoping that Leica introduces an improved VisioFlex with higher resolution and a faster refresh rate.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto.

They’ll need a more powerful processor to power a high res VisioFlex. So, no, first the M11, then the better VisioFlex, I think. 

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vor 6 Stunden schrieb robert blu:

Nice to know it works, just in case I should go the 10 R route !

I tried the M10-R and decided to stay with the M10-P.

Am 28.9.2020 um 07:23 schrieb sillbeers15:

That cannot be the case. My experience with SL to SL2 is just the reverse. Else all camera makers must be bonkers to produce higher mega pixel cameras. What will happen indeed is it needs a faster processor to deal with more data that takes away processing power of AF on Continuous shootings unless a more powerful processor is used.

Looking forward to hearing how you like it. 😄

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