TL/CL system needs way more native lens

[jaapv]

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3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

High megapixel count full frame can do both.

Except for bulk and weight. Full-frame long teles are huge, heavy and exorbitantly expensive. APS-C teles handle much more easily too. Leica, where is the long end for the CL?

[nicci78]

10 hours ago, wda said:

With respect, most of those reasons should have been very clear to you before you bought TL lenses.

How so ? You have to use them beforehand. A fast handling inside the store and a short walk around will not.

They are fine lenses. With their strengths, but over time, I found that there are some drawbacks for my kind of photography. 

After using them for around 1 (23mm & 18-56mm) 4 (18mm) 13 (11-23mm & 55-135) 24 (60mm macro) and 30 (35mm) months. I am really able to be sure, if they fit my needs. It was fun. But I need to move on. 

Another reason is really the upgrade to Q2. It changes everything in my optics mix.

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[wda]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

How so ? You have to use them beforehand. A fast handling inside the store and a short walk around will not.

They are fine lenses. With their strengths, but over time, I found that there are some drawbacks for my kind of photography. 

After using them for around 1 (23mm & 18-56mm) 4 (18mm) 13 (11-23mm & 55-135) 24 (60mm macro) and 30 (35mm) months. I am really able to be sure, if they fit my needs. It was fun. But I need to move on. 

Another reason is really the upgrade to Q2. It changes everything in my optics mix.

You listed missing features, such as focusing scales and infinity stops, which did not require ownership to discover.

Looking back, it seems to me that your main problem is lack of a clearly defined and consistent requirement. Clarify your need and when you are able to do so,  visit a Leica dealer to discuss your requirement  and potential solutions. Buying remotely, only aggregates your position. Forums can help you to gather facts and feelings. Presence with a dealer will concentrate your mind.

You are not alone. Most of us are guilty of satisfying 'Want' rather than 'Need'.

Edited June 10, 2020 by wda

[lct]

Nothing can replace experience. It took me some time to understand that i prefer manual lenses for example or that lenses w/o aperture ring are definitely a no no for me. 

[nicci78]

I never bought anything remotely. Only in store. I tried them extensively beforehand. But it will still be very limited. I tried to make peace with AF. But in the end, it is not for me. 
You cannot erase years of experience with M cameras. 
 

My conclusion after 30 months of TL lenses : AF is not necessary. And I hate zooms. 
I gave up the TL zooms quickly : after only 13 months. 
Then the AF, after liking R lenses so much. 
 

The trigger ? I needed close focusing lenses : TL optics give me that. 0.7-1m minimum focusing distance of M lenses drove me mad.
That is why, I will probably never buy them again.
But R lenses give me everything I like : state of art manual focusing, extensive choice of lenses, reasonable size, aperture ring, distance/depth of field/magnification scales, APO-Extenders and stunning image quality. 
It totally worths the trade of with AF. 
 

Online and magazine reviews, are only a point of view. I need to forge mine. 30 months and 28000 shots are real experience. Dealers sweet talks are not. 

[jaapv]

If you hate them why buy them?

[nicci78]

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I did not know such thing, before buying them. 
I did not hate them. They are fine. They did not suit my needs. That’s all. 
 

But I think that there are 2 tiers of TL lenses. 
- the best : 11-23, 35, 60 & 55-135. 
- the fair : 18-56, 18 & 23.

By the way, even if I hate them, it would have required real experience with them. To sum up, you can only like or dislike something that you have really used. Spec sheets will not tell the whole story  

 

[jaapv]

3 hours ago, nicci78 said:

And I hate zooms. 

  Are the CL zooms really the first zoom lenses you used? I think the 18-56 belongs in the first tier, BTW   I compare the results with various Summicrons and Summiluxes.

[edstock]

Ok I'm new to the CL system. Not new to Leica's M and R systems. The quality of Leica glass is the subject of many experts. I am not an expert on grinding or coating. Nor I am not an expert in the designing of a lens. What I am is a long time, 30 years plus of time using Leica glass on Leica bodies. In examing my CL and a 18 f2.8 I found that the body is solidly built in the best Leica tradition. The 18 f 2.8 box states Leica camera AG, made in Japan. Leica got together with Panasonic to collaborate on areas that Leica had little or no real experience. Does this mean that the L lenses are inferior or "not Leica cause they're not made in Wetzlar"? Back when Leica had to move some production to Canada, costs, there arose from certain "purists" that the lenses and camera bodies coming from Canada were somehow tainted? I have been shooting with my CL and the 18 f2.8. I am happy and satisfied with the results. I am looking forward to using my M glass via the M to L adapter on the CL.

[jaapv]

Japanese Leica lenses are not made by Panasonic, but an independent lens manufacturer to Leica design and under Leica quality control.

[wda]

1 hour ago, edstock said:

Ok I'm new to the CL system. Not new to Leica's M and R systems. The quality of Leica glass is the subject of many experts. I am not an expert on grinding or coating. Nor I am not an expert in the designing of a lens. What I am is a long time, 30 years plus of time using Leica glass on Leica bodies. In examing my CL and a 18 f2.8 I found that the body is solidly built in the best Leica tradition. The 18 f 2.8 box states Leica camera AG, made in Japan. Leica got together with Panasonic to collaborate on areas that Leica had little or no real experience. Does this mean that the L lenses are inferior or "not Leica cause they're not made in Wetzlar"? Back when Leica had to move some production to Canada, costs, there arose from certain "purists" that the lenses and camera bodies coming from Canada were somehow tainted? I have been shooting with my CL and the 18 f2.8. I am happy and satisfied with the results. I am looking forward to using my M glass via the M to L adapter on the CL.

Ed, you will enjoy using your M-lenses on the CL body. A new experience; wonderful results. Enjoy!

[nicci78]

Leica Canada were a fully owned subsidiary with a factory ruled by Walter Mandler himself. He even took Canadian citizenship. 

Made in Japan = subcontracted to an undisclosed company. 

I guess that :
Made in Germany = 100% genuine Leica.
Made in Canada = 95% 
Made in Japan = 50%. 
Panasonic Leica DG = 5%
Panasonic Lumix S certified by Leica = 1% 

😌 you can totally trust those scientific figures 

Edited June 10, 2020 by nicci78

[lct]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

I guess that : [...]
Made in Japan = 50%.  [...]
😌 you can totally trust those scientific figures 

Indeed 50% Japan + 50% more expensive = 100% scientific . Just kidding, some of my favorite lenses are made in Japan too . 

[LocalHero1953]

Only some L lenses are made in Japan; the others are made in Germany. Looking at mine, the SL 16-35, 24-90, 90-280, 75 and 90, and the TL 35 and 60 are all German made, while the TL 11-23 and 18-56 are made in Japan. The quality of the photographs I take with them, though, is determined by the 300mm of locally-grown material behind the VF. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Leica Canada were a fully owned subsidiary with a factory ruled by Walter Mandler himself. He even took Canadian citizenship. 

Made in Japan = subcontracted to an undisclosed company. 

I guess that :
Made in Germany = 100% genuine Leica.
Made in Canada = 95% 
Made in Japan = 50%. 
Panasonic Leica DG = 5%
Panasonic Lumix S certified by Leica = 1% 

😌 you can totally trust those scientific figures 

I fear I cannot make head or tail from these figures but the Leica DG procedure is as follows: Panasonic will design a  lens, the  Pana designers will meet with their Leica counterparts, who will analyze the design and discuss it in a cooperative way. They will then return to Japan, incorporate these suggestions and head back to Wetzlar again. Rinse and repeat a few times. When Leica is satisfied that the lens will meet their criteria, the lens will be licensed to be called a Leica lens.

[nicci78]

I understood that Leica dispatched some employees permanently in Japan. No back and forth between Germany and Japan. They act like consultants at the disposal of Panasonic. 

 

If you read Panasonic interview about their cameras or lenses genesis. You will learn that Leica has little to nothing to do with their design. It is just a marketing ploy. Stick the Leica brand on the so called best lenses in Lumix line up.

 

[Vu Bui]

On 6/10/2020 at 1:27 AM, jaapv said:

Except for bulk and weight. Full-frame long teles are huge, heavy and exorbitantly expensive. APS-C teles handle much more easily too. Leica, where is the long end for the CL?

Considering that my one week long (so far) ownership of my CL has only seen it on the SL 90-280 out photographing birds at 420mm equiv, I agree! It's not a very ergonomic combo, though the images are amazing.

[jaapv]

8 hours ago, nicci78 said:

I understood that Leica dispatched some employees permanently in Japan. No back and forth between Germany and Japan. They act like consultants at the disposal of Panasonic. 

 

If you read Panasonic interview about their cameras or lenses genesis. You will learn that Leica has little to nothing to do with their design. It is just a marketing ploy. Stick the Leica brand on the so called best lenses in Lumix line up.

 

I understood that they were sent to monitor QC, but you may well be right.

[geoffreyg]

Regarding lens manufacture,  parts of the "quality" discussion include design, manufacture, QC, and possibly some  proprietary processes. It doesn't really matter where these lenses are made,  what is important is the level of control in  each of these steps. Integrated design and manufacturing, likely what Leica does in Germany, is different than remote manufacturing (say design in Germany, manuf in Japan), but with appropriate QC, it may not matter. 

If, on the other hand, proprietary processes are involved, either in design or manufacturing, then its a different matter - as these processes may not travel well. Don't know if this is involved today, as there is a lot of sophisticated manufacture by other companies making very good products. Typically the German quality/precision comes from bigger commitment and spending more time ($) on QC and refinement overall to get their better results. That's why the Pana-Leica combination made so much sense: let Leica just work on refining a product where the base product was done by others, more economically. Its a really good idea, but the market sure doesn't like it - feeling its not enough Leica for the expense.

Edited June 12, 2020 by geoffreyg

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[cj3209]

On 6/8/2020 at 10:36 PM, nicci78 said:

After owning every TL lenses and now sold my very last one, the Summilux-TL 35mm. 
I am now out of the AF lens market. I don’t care about future lens anymore. 
 

I will only use R lenses. It will allow me to transition smoothly to SL2 if I wanted to do so. 
 

Leica you lost me as APS-C customer. I am now free to jump ship. Such a pity. 

At a certain age, you will appreciate AF, I guarantee you that - lol.

There are options which I appreciate with Leica.  For instance, I bought the M-L adapter and now I can use the very very good M-Summarit 90mm f2.5 lens and the manual focus is very smooth.  Although at night or dim conditions, I really need AF.

Happy Shooting!