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TL/CL system needs way more native lens


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8 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

I guess I just like old Leica's in the same way I like old cars. But the interface is important, if I were wanting to guarantee myself good results then I'd gravitate back to Canon DSLR. I took my CL out yesterday, but results were not good - the issues were all related to the user interface. It's quite a horrible camera to use, unfortunately. I knew going-in that it was a camera that divides opinions and I was hoping that I would love it, but alas it's generating more frustration than pleasure. I will give a bit longer, after that I may have to look elsewhere for a solution.

I did the opposite yesterday. Felt sorry for my Nikon D500, took it out for a walk, and immediately missed my CL because of its user interface. It's a very personal thing.

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Walking away from the frustration is an emotional response and I do love the image quality (better than my Canon DSLR) so I'm going to find some time to sit down with the CL and the manual and go through the key items once more. One thing I did yesterday was explore the menu on the camera and as a result I set some limits on max ISO it can select, min. shutter speed it can select which will help avoid an 'operator error' when using it. I tend to use it in 'S' mode with the manual lenses and let the auto-ISO be the safeguard for exposure, using the in-window histogram. One thing I have not had the benefit of, is using an M10 so I'm comparing a CL with an M3 which is kind of apples - oranges. I don't have any buddies with an M10 to take out for a test drive but I do like the simple interface on my M3 where I can see the key settings in paint. I could be one of those potential customers for an EVF-M.....

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Try using it like this:

Set to "A" mode, fixed ISO. Display the histogram. Use the left dial (unless you switched them) to control exposure compensation by guidance from the histogram. Use button-press, right dial to control ISO. Use right dial for magnification.

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39 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

Walking away from the frustration is an emotional response and I do love the image quality (better than my Canon DSLR) so I'm going to find some time to sit down with the CL and the manual and go through the key items once more. One thing I did yesterday was explore the menu on the camera and as a result I set some limits on max ISO it can select, min. shutter speed it can select which will help avoid an 'operator error' when using it. I tend to use it in 'S' mode with the manual lenses and let the auto-ISO be the safeguard for exposure, using the in-window histogram. One thing I have not had the benefit of, is using an M10 so I'm comparing a CL with an M3 which is kind of apples - oranges. I don't have any buddies with an M10 to take out for a test drive but I do like the simple interface on my M3 where I can see the key settings in paint. I could be one of those potential customers for an EVF-M.....

I understand better now :cool:. M3 user here too but i have used intensively 3 digital rangefinders since then, let alone mirrorless bodies. FWIW i use essentially the digital CL in auto iso manual mode, forgetting  the histogram i find totally useless but it's just me. This way i use the CL like an M3 with M lenses more or less in that i choose manually aperture and shutter speed and i let the camera choose the iso value as if my M3 could choose the film itself ;). Could hardly be more simple but i don't come directly from the M3 admittedly.  

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3 hours ago, jaapv said:

Try using it like this:

Set to "A" mode, fixed ISO. Display the histogram. Use the left dial (unless you switched them) to control exposure compensation by guidance from the histogram. Use button-press, right dial to control ISO. Use right dial for magnification.

Exactly how I use mine, which if I remember correctly is pretty much it's default settings.

 

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On 5/25/2020 at 9:26 AM, lct said:

I understand better now :cool:. M3 user here too but i have used intensively 3 digital rangefinders since then, let alone mirrorless bodies. FWIW i use essentially the digital CL in auto iso manual mode, forgetting  the histogram i find totally useless but it's just me. This way i use the CL like an M3 with M lenses more or less in that i choose manually aperture and shutter speed and i let the camera choose the iso value as if my M3 could choose the film itself ;). Could hardly be more simple but i don't come directly from the M3 admittedly.  

The difference between what you're doing and what an M3 shooter would be doing is that the camera body is making the exposure adjustment in the digital case, whereas YOU made the ISO setting at the beginning when you loaded the camera with an M3. You can't change it without changing the film, and you can't pull or push each frame individually either. So you MUST consider ISO to be fixed and either Aperture or Time, or both, to be variable if you're going to shoot the way you do with a film M. 

I make no allusion to trying to work as if I were shooting a film camera. I use only M or R lenses on my CL; I set the lens to my preferred aperture for performance requirements and/or DoF desires, set the camera to Auto ISO with the range restriction from 200 to 3200 (a five stop range) with 1/2f limits and A mode. I half-press the shutter release to see what the preview shows, and I watch the histogram and manipulate the EV compensation to suit as I shoot.

That's my standard setting, but of course I change it when the needs of my shooting situation vary far from the norm established by that setup. There are times when full manual control of everything is essential, other times when I need the exposure time to be the baseline rather than the aperture, etc etc. 

G

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  • 2 weeks later...

After owning every TL lenses and now sold my very last one, the Summilux-TL 35mm. 
I am now out of the AF lens market. I don’t care about future lens anymore. 
 

I will only use R lenses. It will allow me to transition smoothly to SL2 if I wanted to do so. 
 

Leica you lost me as APS-C customer. I am now free to jump ship. Such a pity. 

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On 5/26/2020 at 7:23 PM, ramarren said:

The difference between what you're doing and what an M3 shooter would be doing is that the camera body is making the exposure adjustment in the digital case, whereas YOU made the ISO setting at the beginning when you loaded the camera with an M3. You can't change it without changing the film, and you can't pull or push each frame individually either. So you MUST consider ISO to be fixed and either Aperture or Time, or both, to be variable if you're going to shoot the way you do with a film M. 

I make no allusion to trying to work as if I were shooting a film camera. I use only M or R lenses on my CL; I set the lens to my preferred aperture for performance requirements and/or DoF desires, set the camera to Auto ISO with the range restriction from 200 to 3200 (a five stop range) with 1/2f limits and A mode. I half-press the shutter release to see what the preview shows, and I watch the histogram and manipulate the EV compensation to suit as I shoot.

That's my standard setting, but of course I change it when the needs of my shooting situation vary far from the norm established by that setup. There are times when full manual control of everything is essential, other times when I need the exposure time to be the baseline rather than the aperture, etc etc. 

G

The same here, only I set the ISO manually according to the shooting conditions and vary the EV comp dial whilst watching the histogram which comes down to varying the shutter time. I only change the ISO if the shutertime gets too slow.

@LCT: The histogram is nothing more or less than an exposure meter, but more informative and precise. Like an exposure meter, it is up to the photographer to use it or not, but I would advise you to at least understand it. .

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2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Why a pity? We all have our preferences, and if one system does not suit you, another will..Otherwise Leica could just have one line of cameras and lenses.

Exactly and we dont't have to choose between FF and APS. M lenses can be used on both formats fortunately. Was the same with R-D1 and M8 in 2004 and 2006. AF is another story.

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

@LCT: The histogram is nothing more or less than an exposure meter, but more informative and precise. Like an exposure meter, it is up to the photographer to use it or not, but I would advise you to at least understand it.

Totally useless for me sorry. Never used that thing and i don't need exposure meters either, since the Leicameter at least but you were not born yet :D. Just kidding but aside from long exposures, for which i dont need histograms either, i can do exactly what i need with current cameras, especially mirrorless thanks to wysiwyg EVFs. I don't ever understand that one may need those ridiculous (to me) accessories, but it's just me and YMMvastlyV :cool:.

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7 hours ago, nicci78 said:

After owning every TL lenses and now sold my very last one, the Summilux-TL 35mm. 
I am now out of the AF lens market. I don’t care about future lens anymore. 
 

I will only use R lenses. It will allow me to transition smoothly to SL2 if I wanted to do so. 
 

Leica you lost me as APS-C customer. I am now free to jump ship. Such a pity. 

Interesting story. May I asked what made you get rid of the AF lenses? 

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10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

After owning every TL lenses and now sold my very last one, the Summilux-TL 35mm. 
I am now out of the AF lens market. I don’t care about future lens anymore. 
 

I will only use R lenses. It will allow me to transition smoothly to SL2 if I wanted to do so. 
 

Leica you lost me as APS-C customer. I am now free to jump ship. Such a pity. 

Or you could "invest" in some Panasonic or Sigma (or even Leica!) "full frame" lenses, use them on the CL, and have an even smoother transition to the SL2.

Edited by oldwino
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vor 12 Stunden schrieb nicci78:

...

I will only use R lenses. It will allow me to transition smoothly to SL2 if I wanted to do so. 
 

Leica you lost me as APS-C customer. I am now free to jump ship. Such a pity. 

That's something I'm not willing to understand.

A Leica SL and a CL are two completely different systems.

I'm using a FF Nikon Z7 as my main system and APS-C, if I like to have a small body for walkaround.
Both have have their strength and weaknesses.
For APS-C I'm actually switching to a Leica CL as a digital counterpart to my Leica IIIf ...

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4 hours ago, wda said:

Might I add, "what made you buy them in the first place?"

What made me bought them, slowly disappeared over time. The manual focusing itch get back to me. And TL lenses are not really good at that : focus by wire, focusing ring without hard stop, no aperture ring, no distance and depth of field scale. 

Leica made sure that you still need M or R lenses for real manual focusing experience.

I have been disappointed in one way or another, by every TL lenses, except Summilux-TL 35.

Then my Q2 makes at three to five of them redundant. Over seven lenses, there is not much left over.

Last, I missed none of them. That kind of validate my decision. TL lenses are nice, but not ground breaking. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, oldwino said:

Or you could "invest" in some Panasonic or Sigma (or even Leica!) "full frame" lenses, use them on the CL, and have an even smoother transition to the SL2.

Lumix S or Sigma DG DN or DG HSM are way too big for tiny CL. Only APO-Summicron-SL line up are bearable. 

However I found R lenses perfectly suited for CL. The vast majority of them have diameter of E55, E60 or E67. Extremely similar to TL lenses with their E52, E60 or E67 filter size. 

Last, I do not need AF. It is more troublesome than really helpful. 

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1 hour ago, cp995 said:

That's something I'm not willing to understand.

A Leica SL and a CL are two completely different systems.

I'm using a FF Nikon Z7 as my main system and APS-C, if I like to have a small body for walkaround.
Both have have their strength and weaknesses.
For APS-C I'm actually switching to a Leica CL as a digital counterpart to my Leica IIIf ...

Yes it is completely different, but I am fed up to wait for fast wide angle prime lens. Easier, cheaper with many choices in full frame world. 

Full frame is best for wide angle. APS-C is better for telephoto. High megapixel count full frame can do both.

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39 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

What made me bought them, slowly disappeared over time. The manual focusing itch get back to me. And TL lenses are not really good at that : focus by wire, focusing ring without hard stop, no aperture ring, no distance and depth of field scale. 

Leica made sure that you still need M or R lenses for real manual focusing experience.

I have been disappointed in one way or another, by every TL lenses, except Summilux-TL 35.

Then my Q2 makes at three to five of them redundant. Over seven lenses, there is not much left over.

Last, I missed none of them. That kind of validate my decision. TL lenses are nice, but not ground breaking. 

 

 

With respect, most of those reasons should have been very clear to you before you bought TL lenses.

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