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nicci78

TL/CL system needs way more native lens

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Posted (edited)

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After lots of discussion about future of APS-C. How many of you think that the real reason for CL/TL being held back is the lack of native lenses ? 
 

A little history :

- 2014 T was released with two lenses : 18-56mm f/3.5-5.6 & 23mm f/2.0
- 2015 : Then two more with 11-23mm f/3.5-4.5 & 55-135mm f/3.5-4.5
- 2016 : Leica release the only two made in Germany TL lenses : 35mm f/1.4 & macro 60mm f/2.8
- 2017 : CL was released with 18mm f/2.8 pancake lens  

Leica were on a good track, 1 or 2 TL lenses per year. But after 2017 ? Nothing happened at all ! 
We should have 10 to 14 lenses by now. Not 7. 
 

Only 1 fast lens. Only a trinity of slow zoom lenses. Only 2 compact prime lenses.
None of them have OIS. None of the bodies have IBIS. 
No portrait lens, aka equivalent to fast 85/90mm or 70-200mm f/2.8. 
No fast wide angle. ex : equivalent to fast 18/21mm. 
These lens cannot be replaced with any adapted M and R lenses. 
 

So what’s the problem here ? Leica may think that APS-C line do not sell well enough. So they stop releasing new lenses  ? It is a kind a vicious cercle. But  no new lens = death of the system. 
Just like they left the S line died by releasing only bare minimum body upgrade and no new lenses for half a decade. 
 

So what do you think about this situation ? 

Edited by nicci78

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I would like to see more Summilux-TL lenses, ideally a wide-angle like a 16mm f/1.4

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While I respect your comments and concerns, the main missing lenses in your list could be described as 'niche' objectives. Niche segment lenses are low volume, high cost items. As a small company, Leica are clearly taking a cautious line in extending the range. If they are to survive, who can blame them.

The majority of CL users are more than content with available TL lenses with the added bonus of adapted M and R and other independent lenses as evidenced by members in this thread. It would not trouble me if there were to be a five-year gap before a CL2 emerged, so long as occasional  fitmware updates and repair support were maintained.

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Posted (edited)

85mm or 90mm equivalent f/2 or f/1.4 are not niche at all ! It is a must have in every system. 
70-200 equivalent f/2.8 is a must have for every working photographer. 

Fast wide angle lens is a must have for astrophotographers and for indoors shots. 
 

No R and M lenses adapted to APS-C can provide the equivalent. That’s make their lack of even more noticeable. 
 

So my list of needed lenses is more than reasonable. Leica should have fill these hole up long ago. 
 

Unless APS-C is already dead in Leica future line up. So why bother releasing new lenses ? Remember S line (which at least has a quite competent range of lenses. 
 

This is a question of confidence. Leica can provide a roadmap for SL lenses. But none for CL/TL ? What does that mean ? 
I really lost faith in Leica. 2.5 years of blind confidence for nothing. 
Sadly CL makes me gave up on M system. Make me realise that SL system is not me. And I am now lock down in a dead end : the TL/CL system. 
Only Q/Q2 are the best cameras in Leica line up. At least its lens is stuck on the body. You what you get. 

Are we so sure that CL owners are so happy with the current state ? Let this thread enlightens is about what we all think about it. 
Please add your feeling about this poor state of only 7 TL lenses in 6 years. 

Edited by nicci78

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I am happy with the selection they offer, I feel absolutely no need for anything but a long zoom with OIS, smaller and cheaper than the SL one. Well, maybe a compact wideangle, but there is Voigtländer.

For the rest my M and R lenses perform fantastically and fill any special needs, the camera is clearly meant to function as  mini EVF M as well.

I don't judge a system by the number of lenses, but by the use it gives me.

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I really loved the 40mm Summicron-C on my Sony Nex 5N. A lens of the same focal length with autofocus and coupled aperture with about the same form factor - now this would be something that would make me open my purse.

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Hello Philipp! I do use the Summicron C regularly on my CL.It pairs well.

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31 minutes ago, pop said:

I really loved the 40mm Summicron-C on my Sony Nex 5N. A lens of the same focal length with autofocus and coupled aperture with about the same form factor - now this would be something that would make me open my purse.

I do not have the same need, but I would like to give a really warm welcome back to Pop.

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I'm probably not a target demographic since I bought the CL body only and haven't yet seen any particular need to buy a TL or SL series lens for it: My M and R lenses do very nicely with the CL and I tend to prefer manual focus anyway. But to say that seven excellent native lenses "are nowhere near enough" when so many photographers over so many decades have enjoyed making photographs and produced such wonderful photographs with just one or two lenses the whole time seems a trifle over the top. 

Regards the Summicron-C 40mm: Yes, one of my favorite lenses in years past. I nearly bought yet another one when I got the CL, but happened upon the Pentax-L 43mm f/1.9 Special and bought that since I already had the Summilux 35mm f/1.4 V2 (circa 1972). Between those two, my desire for a fast normal is fully satisfied. 

Looking over my lens kit for the CL, the only thing I'm missing is a fast wide in the 21-28 mm range, although I have to say the Elmarit-R 19mm f/2.8, Elmarit-R 28mm f/2.8, and Color Skopar 28mm f/3.5 have not disappointed me at all. That's why I haven't ordered the new Voigtländer Nokton 21mm f/1.4 yet. :D

G

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19mm f/2.8 is nowhere near a fast nor wide for a lens... especially in APS-C crop = 28.5mm f/4.2

We can turn the problem as much as we want. Critical lenses are still missing in APS-C world. And no M or R can replace them. That’s the problem. 

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Would like a prime wide angle but not too fast, Sigma went there and the fast 14 and 16mm are huge. So an f2.8 would work well. I agree that the Voigtlander 15 f4.5 is too slow, though a good size. If a 14 or 16mm could be made no bigger than the 23mm at a reasonable speed, I assume it would be heavier.

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There are the Heliar 10 and 12 mm lenses. Not fast, but I find it very hard to make a case for a fast superwide lens, especially on APS. DOF is from your toes to the horizon at any aperture, camera shake hardly a concern and you can always crank up the ISO. The only things lens speed would add are bulk, weight and bragging rights. In fact, somebody explain to me what sense AF makes on a 10mm lens anyway.

That makes that there is probably no market for a ?000 Euro Leica lens...

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Jaap, I understand what you are saying, right now I am using a Tokina 11-16 f2.8 from my Nikon on my CL, it has taken a while to learn to manual focus it. Would serve as a set to do interiors, but I would prefer a prime. The 11-23 is on my list and would do, but with these times, just not in my budget. 

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb nicci78:

19mm f/2.8 is nowhere near a fast nor wide for a lens... especially in APS-C crop = 28.5mm f/4.2

when cropped to the APS-C format, it is like a 28.5mm lens, but still at f/2.8. The aperture value remains the same.

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6 minutes ago, tommonego@gmail.com said:

Jaap, I understand what you are saying, right now I am using a Tokina 11-16 f2.8 from my Nikon on my CL, it has taken a while to learn to manual focus it. Would serve as a set to do interiors, but I would prefer a prime. The 11-23 is on my list and would do, but with these times, just not in my budget. 

If you use the Leica M adapter and an M-mount lens, manual focusing is dead easy - image magnification is just a thumb-flick away. 

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3 minutes ago, pop said:

when cropped to the APS-C format, it is like a 28.5mm lens, but still at f/2.8. The aperture value remains the same.

Yes yes of course. It is just for depth of field comparison. Easier to translate everything into 24x36 world. Otherwise it will be impossible to compare 1 inch 2.7x with m4/3 2x with APS-C 1.5x or 1.6x with APS-H 1.33x with Full frame 1x  and pseudo MF 33x44 0.79x with Leica Small MF 30x45 0.8x etc... you got the idea. 

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1 minute ago, jaapv said:

If you use the Leica M adapter and an M-mount lens, manual focusing is dead easy - image magnification is just a thumb-flick away. 

Using the Tokina with the Novoflex adaptor is awkward. I gave up and bought the 11-23 (used).

If I had it to do over again, I'd probably just get a Voigtlander 12 mm (on sale right now).

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Yes - I dislike the arrow button  magnification as well

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Jaap, if you're responding to my post, it's not the magnification issues (especially on a wide). It's the lack of aperture control. With the Novoflex, it's approximate, at best. Of course, the histogram gives guidance,  but in the end, it was just too clunky and unenjoyable, and I got a good deal on the 11-23, which is an excellent lens.

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6 hours ago, nicci78 said:

So what’s the problem here ? Leica may think that APS-C line do not sell well enough. So they stop releasing new lenses  ? It is a kind a vicious cercle. But  no new lens = death of the system. 
Just like they left the S line died by releasing only bare minimum body upgrade and no new lenses for half a decade. 
So what do you think about this situation ? 

FWIW S cameras are aimed at pro photogs needing a "system" as you say, but not the CL. Basic CL users' needs are covered by the current lens range and those needing faster and/or longer lenses can chose an M, an R or a SL lens instead. No problem with standard and tele lenses then IMHO but wides are too big or too slow i agree. Same old story since the R-D1 in 2004 or the M8 in 2006. I would welcome a compact 15/3.4 i guess but how much bigger would it be compared to my CV 15/4.5 v2 and how many people would buy it at Leica prices instead of the WATE or the TL 11-23? As far as APS cameras are concerned, the solution will not come from Leica i fear but i may be wrong.

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