Leica M10 Monochrom Images

[davidmknoble]

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Based on some posts here, remember a few things:  

1. Going from 24mp to 41mp on the same sensor size means the light gathering of each pixel is less (6 microns vs 4 microns, if I remember correctly).  So, there is most likely more noise per pixel especially at new higher ISO's.  However, for the same print size, i.e., 13 x 19 or 17 x 22, there are more pixels, so the noise or some of the banding will be less visible in the final print.  7864 x 5200 at 400 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  Previously we had 5976 x 3992 on the 24mp sensor which, at 307 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  This is an increase of 33% in information to print with, using an increase of 100dpi from 300dpi for that print size.  So, 100% view on the image is irrelevant for 13 x 19 prints.  At 300 dpi, 7864 x 5200 the print size would be 26 x 17 (cropped to 22 x 17).  Coming from using black and white 35mm film starting in the early 1980's, this is a tremendous print size with no interpolation whatsoever on the image data.

2. With more pixels comes a requirement of better technique to take full advantage of the sensor.  I'm not talking about lenses, although that can also have an effect.  I'm talking about stability.  I also shoot with an S007 and the first lesson I learned with that camera is that camera shake is more of an issue than with film or the 24mp M240 and M10. It is easier to move the S007 when taking a photograph, and slow shutter speeds require much better technique to avoid camera shake.  I use a tripod 90% of the time and take landscape images.  Printing them at 17x22 is breathtaking in the amount of crisp very fine detail that makes it into the final print.  The M10M is capable of the same, but the camera must be held absolutely steady and sloppy hand-holding is more visible in this camera body.  The SL2 has multiple image stabilization, so it will not be noticed as much.  However, small shake may not be visible at 13 x 19 prints (see above) because if printed at 300dpi, a 13 x 19 print may remove enough information to avoid showing a little movement.

3. The dynamic range of the M10M is more than any other digital M we have ever had.  But, the technique has not changed.  For film, you must expose for the shadows.  So a print may end up looking too light if you overexpose the shadows.  But darkening a negative when printing normally looks great because the highlights are still there.  What does this have to do with digital?  A negative is the reverse of the print - shadows are clear parts of the negative (digital highlights) and highlights are black parts of the negative (digital shadows).  Because we have so much dynamic range, a very dark DNG file is probably very, very good.  If the highlights are saved, the shadows can be brought way up because the data is there.

Sorry if this is too much to put here, but IMHO, this is how we have to analyze the M10M.  Great shot here, love to see them!

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[marcg]

9 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

Based on some posts here, remember a few things:  

2. With more pixels comes a requirement of better technique to take full advantage of the sensor.  I'm not talking about lenses, although that can also have an effect.  I'm talking about stability.  I also shoot with an S007 and the first lesson I learned with that camera is that camera shake is more of an issue than with film or the 24mp M240 and M10. It is easier to move the S007 when taking a photograph, and slow shutter speeds require much better technique to avoid camera shake.  I use a tripod 90% of the time and take landscape images.  Printing them at 17x22 is breathtaking in the amount of crisp very fine detail that makes it into the final print.  The M10M is capable of the same, but the camera must be held absolutely steady and sloppy hand-holding is more visible in this camera body.  The SL2 has multiple image stabilization, so it will not be noticed as much.  However, small shake may not be visible at 13 x 19 prints (see above) because if printed at 300dpi, a 13 x 19 print may remove enough information to avoid showing a little movement.

3. The dynamic range of the M10M is more than any other digital M we have ever had.  But, the technique has not changed.  For film, you must expose for the shadows.  So a print may end up looking too light if you overexpose the shadows.  But darkening a negative when printing normally looks great because the highlights are still there.  What does this have to do with digital?  A negative is the reverse of the print - shadows are clear parts of the negative (digital highlights) and highlights are black parts of the negative (digital shadows).  Because we have so much dynamic range, a very dark DNG file is probably very, very good.  If the highlights are saved, the shadows can be brought way up because the data is there.

Sorry if this is too much to put here, but IMHO, this is how we have to analyze the M10M.  Great shot here, love to see them!

Very helpful. Thanks.

 

Quote

1. Going from 24mp to 41mp on the same sensor size means the light gathering of each pixel is less (6 microns vs 4 microns, if I remember correctly).  So, there is most likely more noise per pixel especially at new higher ISO's.  However, for the same print size, i.e., 13 x 19 or 17 x 22, there are more pixels, so the noise or some of the banding will be less visible in the final print.  7864 x 5200 at 400 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  Previously we had 5976 x 3992 on the 24mp sensor which, at 307 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  This is an increase of 33% in information to print with, using an increase of 100dpi from 300dpi for that print size.  So, 100% view on the image is irrelevant for 13 x 19 prints.  At 300 dpi, 7864 x 5200 the print size would be 26 x 17 (cropped to 22 x 17).  Coming from using black and white 35mm film starting in the early 1980's, this is a tremendous print size with no interpolation whatsoever on the image data.

I haven't the slightest idea what you're on about!  😵

[davidmknoble]

Just now, marcg said:

I haven't the slightest idea what you're on about!  😵

@marcg, I'm just saying that a 100% view of an M10M image is zooming in too much for most large prints, let alone web images.  So, it doesn't matter like it did with the M9 (18mp) and M240/M10 (24mp).  

[marcg]

So I understand that all of this:

 

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Equals all of that!!!  😂

Now it makes a lot of sense. Thanks!

(Please excuse my lack of numeracy skills)

Edited January 26, 2020 by marcg

[davidmknoble]

@marcg LOL, yes, I just like the why!  I have been accused of being wordy.  

Looking forward to more images here!

[marcg]

It wasn't the words, it was the numbers in between them!  Doh...

 

(I have a special problem with £7250.00 – that is a very troubling number for me)

Edited January 26, 2020 by marcg

[insideline]

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3 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

To be brutally honest, the majority of images so far are underwhelming :

Compared to the first few pages in the M9M and M246 image threads much is lacking both pictorially and with tonality.

The hardest question to ask is : how much of this is down to  - the weather; a need to post as soon as possible ;  a shift in experience levels; camera output - lack of profiles;  post processing difficulty  ?

 

I agree with you that the majority of the uploads pictures are just good but something may be missing with the exception of the German M10M test which in my eyes contained some very nice images taken with this new M10M and a 35 ASPH Summicron. Yet now that I have my own copy of this new M10M I can see for myself that the output is truly in another league vs my mm1 and my sold M246 Monochrom. This body's ability to shoot in extremely low light with relative ease and speed is astounding plus the images are very clean even at very high ISO levels. Plus the smooth gradation of grey to whites to blacks on my few images thus far are markedly superior to my MM1. To my eyes this may be the finest digital M body made to date as the 41MP Monochrom specific sensor seems to resolve in ways the first two tried but overall failed to. The MM1 CCD sensor is just wonderful as most I would think would agree but at higher ISO levels it is quite noisy plus the body is not at all fast to work with, the M246 for me struggled with blowing out the high lights but provided clean images, this new M10M so far is the best of all with wonderful tone levels like the MM1 and yet much much cleaner than the M246 as ISO levels rise. So far I am extremely impressed. 

[Ken Abrahams]

Aboriginal Photographer showing the image play back. Gotta love these people. M10M 35 M Summicron ASPH 800 ISO 

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[Ken Abrahams]

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You guys crack me up. Pixel peeping a mans files and and clambering over the finer details like all trust in the Mother Ship is lost.  

I must admit the M10M is pretty sensitive. I have my clipping set to 250 and the summer light here is setting red of in backgrounds of images. There is no need to remind me how one needs to make exposures with these cameras, its a bit hard sometimes underexposing and the details you wanted look lost in the dark preview, until you get home that is and see the files uploaded.  The orange filter isn't really necessary in contrasting light and well, the Summicrons are good on the Mono's I think. My main concern is setting off the "Play" button as I am walking along. At other times I have hit the thumb wheel and inadvertently enlarged the review screen to maximum.   

320 ISO M 35 Summicron ASPH  - 0.7 Exposure compensation with Orange Filter. (the sun was blinding bright almost horizontal. 

Edited January 26, 2020 by Kendoo

[dkmoore]

I posted this picture already (not an amazing image by any stretch) and I wanted to post images quickly to help folks get a sense of the files. As indicated, minimum editing was done because I felt that It wasn't important as I wasn't showcasing anything anyway.  My longwinded point is that yes, the OOC files are very muddy and flat, similar to the MM1.

They are VERY easy to edit and are VERY malleable. (whether you like what I did with this image or not). This image actually looks decent printed at 13 X 19 on Baryta. 

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[jplomley]

12 hours ago, erudolph said:

28mm Summicron, Yellow filter, f/2, 1/60, ISO 1000

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How well does the 28 Cron v2 hold up to the 40 MP sensor, as this is my favourite optic in the Leica stable.

[erudolph]

8 minutes ago, jplomley said:

How well does the 28 Cron v2 hold up to the 40 MP sensor, as this is my favourite optic in the Leica stable.

In my opinion it holds up well.

[Ken Abrahams]

Sky Pilot - M 35 Summicron Asph  - a few tonal adjustments 

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[SrMi]

4 hours ago, marcg said:

thanks. Yes I am pixel peeping and I expect that most people are because this is such a new camera and we are all trying to understand it as well as we can without actually paying £7.2 K or getting our hands on it in some other way.

The information you provided alongside the image was very helpful – and I wish that more people would disclose that kind of information rather than simply the lens that they had used – but of course we didn't know that there was any postprocessing or the extent of it.

Your explanation is very helpful

I would expect every forum member to process the image before posting it. Straight OOC images should be marked as such, as an excuse 🙂 for quality shown.

[Bo-Sixten]

Kendoo. Any filter used in post #173?

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, davidmknoble said:

Based on some posts here, remember a few things:  

1. Going from 24mp to 41mp on the same sensor size means the light gathering of each pixel is less (6 microns vs 4 microns, if I remember correctly).  So, there is most likely more noise per pixel especially at new higher ISO's.  However, for the same print size, i.e., 13 x 19 or 17 x 22, there are more pixels, so the noise or some of the banding will be less visible in the final print.  7864 x 5200 at 400 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  Previously we had 5976 x 3992 on the 24mp sensor which, at 307 dpi is essentially 19 x 13.  This is an increase of 33% in information to print with, using an increase of 100dpi from 300dpi for that print size.  So, 100% view on the image is irrelevant for 13 x 19 prints.  At 300 dpi, 7864 x 5200 the print size would be 26 x 17 (cropped to 22 x 17).  Coming from using black and white 35mm film starting in the early 1980's, this is a tremendous print size with no interpolation whatsoever on the image data.

2. With more pixels comes a requirement of better technique to take full advantage of the sensor.  I'm not talking about lenses, although that can also have an effect.  I'm talking about stability.  I also shoot with an S007 and the first lesson I learned with that camera is that camera shake is more of an issue than with film or the 24mp M240 and M10. It is easier to move the S007 when taking a photograph, and slow shutter speeds require much better technique to avoid camera shake.  I use a tripod 90% of the time and take landscape images.  Printing them at 17x22 is breathtaking in the amount of crisp very fine detail that makes it into the final print.  The M10M is capable of the same, but the camera must be held absolutely steady and sloppy hand-holding is more visible in this camera body.  The SL2 has multiple image stabilization, so it will not be noticed as much.  However, small shake may not be visible at 13 x 19 prints (see above) because if printed at 300dpi, a 13 x 19 print may remove enough information to avoid showing a little movement.

3. The dynamic range of the M10M is more than any other digital M we have ever had.  But, the technique has not changed.  For film, you must expose for the shadows.  So a print may end up looking too light if you overexpose the shadows.  But darkening a negative when printing normally looks great because the highlights are still there.  What does this have to do with digital?  A negative is the reverse of the print - shadows are clear parts of the negative (digital highlights) and highlights are black parts of the negative (digital shadows).  Because we have so much dynamic range, a very dark DNG file is probably very, very good.  If the highlights are saved, the shadows can be brought way up because the data is there.

Sorry if this is too much to put here, but IMHO, this is how we have to analyze the M10M.  Great shot here, love to see them!

It is my understanding that both the minimum shutter speed to eliminate camera shake, as well as depth-of-field, change with the sensor resolution only if looking at images at 100%. They do not differ between same-sized sensors if the output size is the same.

[Ken Abrahams]

20 minutes ago, Bo-Sixten said:

Kendoo. Any filter used in post #173?

Yes, the orange filter! 😀

[FrozenInTime]

3 hours ago, insideline said:

. Yet now that I have my own copy of this new M10M I can see for myself that the output is truly in another league vs my mm1 and my sold M246 Monochrom. This body's ability to shoot in extremely low light with relative ease and speed is astounding plus the images are very clean even at very high ISO levels. Plus the smooth gradation of grey to whites to blacks on my few images thus far are markedly superior to my MM1. To my eyes this may be the finest digital M body made to date as the 41MP Monochrom specific sensor seems to resolve in ways the first two tried but overall failed to. The MM1 CCD sensor is just wonderful as most I would think would agree but at higher ISO levels it is quite noisy plus the body is not at all fast to work with, the M246 for me struggled with blowing out the high lights but provided clean images, this new M10M so far is the best of all with wonderful tone levels like the MM1 and yet much much cleaner than the M246 as ISO levels rise. So far I am extremely impressed. 

Thanks , reassuring words for those on the waiting lists.

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[davidmknoble]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

It is my understanding that both the minimum shutter speed to eliminate camera shake, as well as depth-of-field, change with the sensor resolution only if looking at images at 100%. They do not differ between same-sized sensors if the output size is the same.

@SrMi At a really technical level, smaller sized pixels more quickly pick up camera shake and record it.  Think this way.  A 6micron pixel shows no shake up to a 6micron movement, 4microns, only up to a 4micron movement, so its easier to record a camera shake, and it really doesn't take much to get there in practical use.  I am not saying it affects most reasonably sized prints, and actually believe that its immaterial up to 13 x 19 prints.  Also, for the MM246 a 13x19 print at 300dpi is 100% and for the M10M a 17x22 print at 300dpi is 100%, so again it' possible depending.  

All in all, just saying camera shake can play a bigger part depending on the use for the image.  Many believe that increased resolution of sensor means making larger prints.  If that is the case, hold it steady!

[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, davidmknoble said:

@SrMi At a really technical level, smaller sized pixels more quickly pick up camera shake and record it.  Think this way.  A 6micron pixel shows no shake up to a 6micron movement, 4microns, only up to a 4micron movement, so its easier to record a camera shake, and it really doesn't take much to get there in practical use.  I am not saying it affects most reasonably sized prints, and actually believe that its immaterial up to 13 x 19 prints.  Also, for the MM246 a 13x19 print at 300dpi is 100% and for the M10M a 17x22 print at 300dpi is 100%, so again it' possible depending.  

All in all, just saying camera shake can play a bigger part depending on the use for the image.  Many believe that increased resolution of sensor means making larger prints.  If that is the case, hold it steady!

I agree, and my post that you replied to does not contradict what you wrote unless there is a misunderstanding.