leicapfile Posted July 24, 2007 Share #121 Posted July 24, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) Mark and Bob, More telling than asking about the 'can not" verbage in the message from Leica, is the identity of the article(s) that can't be produced its self. Given that their lenses are just glass and metal, I suspect the culprit here is glass rather than metal. They probably simply can't get one of more of the formulations that were used in the past. They were probably the only customer for these, and it became uneconomic for their maker to continue production, given Leica volumes. Best, Jerry P.S. Glad I have mine for shooting, and later on the heirs will be happy to. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted July 24, 2007 Posted July 24, 2007 Hi leicapfile, Take a look here MATE discontinued. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
ho_co Posted July 25, 2007 Share #122 Posted July 25, 2007 I've just read an interesting comment on Uwe Steinmueller's site from Leica regarding the MATE, Leica M8 Experience "The LEICA TRI-ELMAR-M 28-35-50mm f/4 ASPH. is one of the most complex Leica M lenses. It is extremely demanding in terms of assembling the individual mechanical and optical parts. Sadly, one of the key parts cannot be acquired in the quality necessary for the lens performance any longer. Every attempt to replace this part with an alternative only resulted in a lens with a rendition quality well below the Leica standard. Therefore, we were forced to discontinue the lens". Thanks for the link and quote. That's the same wording Leica Technical in NJ used when I spoke to them a few days after the speculation appeared here that it was loss of a particular glass, as I alluded to at http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/29844-28-35-50-tri-elmar-coding.html#post312800. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 25, 2007 Share #123 Posted July 25, 2007 Bring back the Leitz Glass Lab! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 25, 2007 Share #124 Posted July 25, 2007 ...or at least bring back the glass stocks. Leica used to stock all the important glass types, but apparently they stopped at some point, reverting to JIT. This might have saved the price of the Noctilux and both the 75 Lux and Tri-Elmar. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 25, 2007 Share #125 Posted July 25, 2007 Bring back the Leitz Glass Lab! Mark-- Hear, hear! As long as they are beholden to others for supply, their designs may not be as robust as we saw previously. In another thread you remarked on our (and possibly also Leica's) surprise at the discontinuation of various lenses, speculating whether it might be due to unexpected price increases or materials shortages, or whether from the beginning only a particular quantity was booked. Not to stoke a fire that may still be merely smoldering, but it might be that the cost accountants have got into the fray. Leica has been a very canny bunch of technicians with a hit-or-miss business sense. Now the accounting trolls may have appeared with their profit graphs of units salable vs price-points vs costs. The glass lab was an expensive, inefficient proposition. It brought Leitz to the front of optical design, but was also part of the cause of their insolvency. Carsten-- You're right about the Japanese source of a lot of glass, but Schott and (at least in the past) Corning in the US were also involved. Nothing wrong with getting it from the lowest bidder, but at least they previously had the option of falling back on their own expertise when all else failed. And I'm not sure that simply keeping stocks would help so much. What happens if you buy stock and then the price drops? And at some point you run out your stock and have to reorder. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 25, 2007 Share #126 Posted July 25, 2007 Erm, I am not sure where I mentioned the Japanese. I know that Leitz glass mostly went to Schott or Corning, and that Leica now buys back the glass from there... JIT = Just In Time, in case that was the cause of confusion. If the price goes up for good, there is nothing you can do, except cdelay the inevitable. However, I would bet that a lot of the price raises have more to do with temporary shortages of various raw materials than permanence. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 26, 2007 Share #127 Posted July 26, 2007 Advertisement (gone after registration) JIT = Just In Time, in case that was the cause of confusion. OOPS! I thought it was the Japanese Industrial Complex. You're right, of course. But they've always purchased or made in batches, so far as I'm aware. Run out of glass for a particular design, make another batch. But I'm speaking of the days of the Leitz Glass Lab, when a 'batch' might be as little as a single cauldron--also not very efficient. Sorry for the confusion. At least it's good that we're all ready to solve Leica's financial problems by both instruction and purchase. --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
wlaidlaw Posted July 26, 2007 Share #128 Posted July 26, 2007 Erm, I am not sure where I mentioned the Japanese. I know that Leitz glass mostly went to Schott or Corning, and that Leica now buys back the glass from there... JIT = Just In Time, in case that was the cause of confusion. If the price goes up for good, there is nothing you can do, except cdelay the inevitable. However, I would bet that a lot of the price raises have more to do with temporary shortages of various raw materials than permanence. Does anyone know if there is a financial link between Schott and The Zeiss Foundation or is Zeiss just a customer of Schott. Wilson Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 26, 2007 Share #129 Posted July 26, 2007 The Zeiss foundation owns Schott and Zeiss Oberkochen: SCHOTT AG - Company - Carl-Zeiss-Foundation Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 26, 2007 Share #130 Posted July 26, 2007 So now the conspriacy theories will start that Zeiss could be exerting pressure on Schott to discontinue the exotic glasses used by Leica in their lenses... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
carstenw Posted July 26, 2007 Share #131 Posted July 26, 2007 Mark, I would be surprised if this would be possible. Leitz developed some of the glasses which they then transferred to Schott or Corning when the Leitz glass lab shut down, so I am sure that the glass types are covered by some carefully written contract. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 26, 2007 Share #132 Posted July 26, 2007 Carsten, I am sure you are right, but as I think Leica found out when Hasselblad bought Imacon, it's not good news to have one of your key suppliers owned by one of your competitors. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rosuna Posted July 26, 2007 Share #133 Posted July 26, 2007 Carl Zeiss is not Microsoft. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwelland Posted July 26, 2007 Share #134 Posted July 26, 2007 I recall reading that Leica seem to have been a little surprised by the volume of lens and accessory sales following the debut of the M8. I wonder how much of an effect this has had on Leica's ability to support manufacturing of complex lenses such as the Tri Elmar, Lux'es etc? Do you think that perhaps where they thought they had sufficient stocks to last for some time but suddenly demand out stripped the planned supply? As mentioned though, I'm sure the bean counters and new management had to take a look at the financial exposure of the company and decide what products live and which run out production. I just hope that we're going to see some new innovative lenses to suite the digital cameras. The WATE is a great start and no doubt a lot simpler and more profitable to build without the rangefinder frame coupling requirements of the MATE. I have to think that Leica recognize the need for a new WA prime lens in the 12 - 16mm range. I'm sure that Voigtlander have been rubbing their hands with glee at the volume of 12 & 15mm wides being sold these days. Does anyone know if Leica have patented the lens coding? I wonder what's really stopping someone like CV or Zeiss from producing coded lens flanges now? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted July 26, 2007 Share #135 Posted July 26, 2007 Technical products have an economical lifespan in production - when manufacturing costs get so high that the positioning in the market gets problematic, production is stopped. That happens when raw materials used for that particular design get too expensive, or the the production process gets too costly (read labour -intensive)compared to more modern designs, or for a host of other reasons. Whether that product is really obsolete or whether there still is a group of potential customers around is really not a factor in that decision -sadly.See the Concorde, the Volvo 240, etc... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted July 26, 2007 Share #136 Posted July 26, 2007 Does anyone know if Leica have patented the lens coding? I wonder what's really stopping someone like CV or Zeiss from producing coded lens flanges now? See http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/digital-forum/13272-self-coded-35mm-summicron-m-asph-4.html#post169794 on this. Sounds like it's patented or otherwise protected. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted July 26, 2007 Share #137 Posted July 26, 2007 Whether that product is really obsolete or whether there still is a group of potential customers around is really not a factor in that decision -sadly.See the Concorde, the Volvo 240, etc... Not sure the Concorde is a good example. That had a special problem... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
marknorton Posted July 26, 2007 Share #138 Posted July 26, 2007 Great plane to fly in though and if you ever get the chance, go to the museum in Sinsheim in Germany where they have one of the Concordes and a Russian "Concordski" on stilts over the musuem... Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ho_co Posted July 26, 2007 Share #139 Posted July 26, 2007 Carl Zeiss is not Microsoft. Uh-oh! Rubén, you've just given Bill Gates a dangerous idea... --HC Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
guidomo Posted July 27, 2007 Share #140 Posted July 27, 2007 Great plane to fly in though and if you ever get the chance, go to the museum in Sinsheim in Germany where they have one of the Concordes and a Russian "Concordski" on stilts over the musuem... The Russian model was called TU-144 and actually flew before the Concorde. The first model plane I built when I was a kid. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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