Sean Reid's M240 review raises a question

[jdlaing]

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Hi there

certainly I wasn't offended, and I'm sure nobody else was. There was a date when we could publish our work (22nd?). that's why it seemed co-ordinated (because it was). If you're testing a camera there needs to be a special relationship, and of course there is.

 

all the best

 

I know that from another manufacturer to which we are both accustomed.

[k-hawinkler]

Hi there

certainly I wasn't offended, and I'm sure nobody else was. There was a date when we could publish our work (22nd?). that's why it seemed co-ordinated (because it was). If you're testing a camera there needs to be a special relationship, and of course there is.

 

all the best

 

 

Hi Jono,

 

Understood. Many thanks.

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[kirkwilliam3]

Exactly Kirk--I'm feeling the same with my M9P-notchy release and motor torque lead to less

security in handholding and "improv" tripods at slower speeds. Think we would all gladly get

to a more refined release typical of M2-MP.

 

Thats all I really need in the new M.

KirkWilliam

mikephaling.com

[photomeme]

Can you please quote the text by Sean Reid which you are referring to?

 

oh my goodness. you are still selectively quoting for effect!

 

i've fairly reflected Reid's point, without appropriating his work.

 

you press forward with an agenda, i'm just not that interested.

 

and i can't respond with quotations without intruding too far on Reid's copyright, which you've very nearly done here. fair use is a fine line, in my book you may have crossed it.

 

in camera median smoothing in a CMOS camera is a very big deal, if sean reid is correct. i wouldn't minimize it.

 

potential buyers, keep an eye for others raising this issue, as additional and more technical review surface. subscribe to reid if you want to read it all in context.

 

Ming's review was a bit too much of an advocate piece, for my taste.

Edited February 26, 2013 by photomeme

[Rick]

It seems there are several discussions going on here. The one that threads its way through here and puzzles me is the one about noise reduction appearing at ISO 2500. I'm not sure why it is being referred to as an issue that we need to keep an eye out for. And, that it is a very big deal that shouldn't be minimized.

 

Median filter circuits are used in CMOS circuits and have been around from the beginning of CMOS sensor design. They are still employed in the sensor noise reduction circuits on modern day CMOS sensors.

 

Median filter circuits are mainly used to remove high frequency noise while preserving sharp edges. They do this by reading data and applying different schemes to derive a median output with less noise. I was under the impression that they are quite common in the readout circuits of CMOS sensors.

 

So, I'm not sure how seeing some amount of image processing in files by Sean Reid can lead to a conclusion of what sort of complex signal noise reduction Leica and CMOSIS are utilizing, either median filtering in the sensor or firmware applied. And, why is reducing sensor noise starting at the pixel level readout a bad thing if, balanced with the goal of producing the best high ISO image with the most detail possible? It seems naive to believe this is not being done routinely.

 

Isn't the purpose of switching to a CMOS sensor the gain of on sensor noise reduction not possible with CCD sensors? Maybe, somebody on the forum with greater knowledge than myself (this would be easy) can comment.

Edited February 26, 2013 by RickLeica

[Ecaton]

What a revelation. It`s difficult to better the M9 files at low and "lowish" isos. Didn`t we know that already? The M adds versatilty, more decent performance (buffer, write time), a state of the art lcd screen and some gadgetry some will use and others won`t. What did you expect, MF IQ plus best in class high iso performance? It`s 2013, we aren`t there (yet).

[UliWer]

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... fair use is a fine line, in my book you may have crossed it.

 

in camera median smoothing in a CMOS camera is a very big deal, if sean reid is correct. i wouldn't minimize it.

 

...

 

Everybody who wishes may read what is said about "smoothing" by noise filtering in Read's text - and if there is anything in it which justifies the expression "very big deal" as far as Read's perception of the M 240 is concerned.

 

Some lines, some crossings.

[jaapv]

Maybe, for us laymen, it would be wise to rtead up on the differences between CMos and CCD sensors.

The Teledyne/Dalsa article

CCD vs. CMOS - Teledyne DALSA Inc

, even if it was written in 2005 is a good starting point, especially if one folllows the chain of provided references like

 

http://www.teledynedalsa.com/public/mv/appnotes/EvolutionofCMOS_Technology_wp.pdf

 

And:

 

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary/

Edited February 26, 2013 by jaapv

[wattsy]

don't try the shutter on an M - for me it is still the single most important change between it and the M9.

 

That's interesting, Jono. In many ways I found the 'soft' release option of the M9 the most pleasing change between that camera and the M8 (probably trumping both the full-frame and improved IR filtration of the M9) and it's good to hear that Leica have improved things further. You've favourably mentioned the shutter release on the M a few times recently and it is only really that (and, strangely, the GPS option) that has piqued my interest in the new camera. That said, neither feature is anywhere near enough for me to think about buying the new M (I have absolutely no appetite for buying a new camera at the moment – let alone one that largely replicates the functionality of a camera that I already have).

[Guest malland]

Maybe, for us laymen, it would be wise to rtead up on the differences between CMos and CCD sensors...

Here is an evaluation in the Economist, written last July; but, of course, it still doesn't answer the the basic question with regard to the color rendition of the M9 vs the M240.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

[k-hawinkler]

Here is an evaluation in the Economist, written last July; but, of course, it still doesn't answer the the basic question with regard to the color rendition of the M9 vs the M240.

 

—Mitch/Paris

Paris au rythme de Basquiat and Other Poems [download link for book project]

 

 

An OT quote from that article:

 

"Also, with the light travelling such a short distance from the lens to the sensor, there is little room for it to diffuse. That makes the image much sharper around the edges and in the corners—a problem D-SLRs have never quite licked."

 

Is that statement correct?

[Photoskeptic]

What do you expect that the next iteration will give? Are you expecting further improvements in image quality or are other aspects more important for you?

 

Thomas

I think that after the two to three years of product cycle have passed, Leica will have come to grips with the new sensor and the experience gained will show them the way to a better product.

 

And who knows?, I just might decide to order one anyway after I can actually put my hands on one.

[UliWer]

An OT quote from that article:

 

"Also, with the light travelling such a short distance from the lens to the sensor, there is little room for it to diffuse. That makes the image much sharper around the edges and in the corners—a problem D-SLRs have never quite licked."

 

Is that statement correct?

 

I think it's not completely correct. The main issue about the light having to travel such big distances is not diffusion but ageing - the rays become wrinkly and gray. Just imagine the difference between a photon voyage of say 26.9mm or 47.3mm...

[jaapv]

LOL. He means Microlens. An issue Leica has addressed with the CMosis.

[k-hawinkler]

I think it's not completely correct. The main issue about the light having to travel such big distances is not diffusion but ageing - the rays become wrinkly and gray. Just imagine the difference between a photon voyage of say 26.9mm or 47.3mm...

 

 

Very funny as well. :D

Why should I believe anything that guy writes?

Edited February 26, 2013 by k-hawinkler

[lct]

LOL. He means Microlens. An issue Leica has addressed with the CMosis.

I could not tell to which extent. Are there DNGs available with wides?

[biglou]

Hi Donald,

 

My 35 Summicron v4 is much better than that at F2, as is my 40 cron. This was not the case, however, with my v1, which was useless wide open (despite the prices people are willing to pay for them!)

 

Kirk

 

Your summicron v1 had a defect.

The two i own are very, very sharp, even wide open.

Less contrasty than the asph summicron but easily as sharp.

[chris_tribble]

That's interesting, Jono. In many ways I found the 'soft' release option of the M9 the most pleasing change between that camera and the M8 (probably trumping both the full-frame and improved IR filtration of the M9) and it's good to hear that Leica have improved things further. You've favourably mentioned the shutter release on the M a few times recently and it is only really that (and, strangely, the GPS option) that has piqued my interest in the new camera. That said, neither feature is anywhere near enough for me to think about buying the new M (I have absolutely no appetite for buying a new camera at the moment – let alone one that largely replicates the functionality of a camera that I already have).

 

Ian - my experience is that there are losses and gains. We gain a MUCH smoother shutter release button + MUCH quieter shutter actuation and re-cock with the M-240. It really is getting back to the sound of the M6 and nearly as good as the M7 (the quietest mechanical shutter camera I've ever used). However - you lose discreet mode - and I regret this. I loved being able to shoot and then put the camera back under a bag to re-cock. Same as quietly winding on the film and re-cocking with the M6/7...

 

It's an imperfect world - but then again, the M's shutter is really very good...

[marknorton]

I would certainly be interested in Leica coming up with an upgraded shutter release for the M8 and M9. It's been criticised from the outset and some - me included - chose to fiddle with the adjustment screws to take away the grittiness. I think it would transform the M8/M9 experience. I don't think for one minute it will happen but my own very short experience of using it in the new camera was very positive.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[UliWer]

I havn't tried an M-E, though I got the impression from videos that its shutter sounds much more like the new M as like the M9. So perhaps Leica found out a way to "silence" the shutter withouit applying big changes.