The future of film again

[Xmas]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

nobody has any idea what they may do to you years from now."

 

Not sure about the 'nobody' or 'any'

 

If you handle metol liquid devs e.g. D76 use rubber gloves, especially if anyone in your family has had an allergy in past.

 

Mix the power devs out of doors.

 

Avoid the color devs.

 

The environmental effect is the whole way from manufacture to disposal, and my USB sticks have a very short life from static.

 

There is silver in the silver button cells, dont discard in trash.

 

Noel

[AlanG]

Not sure about the 'nobody' or 'any'

 

If you handle metol liquid devs e.g. D76 use rubber gloves, especially if anyone in your family has had an allergy in past.

 

Mix the power devs out of doors.

 

Avoid the color devs.

 

The environmental effect is the whole way from manufacture to disposal, and my USB sticks have a very short life from static.

 

There is silver in the silver button cells, dont discard in trash.

 

Noel

 

Have you ever run a Cibachrome processing lab? Can you show me info about those chemicals and other photo chemicals that do not show that many of them are potential carcinogens or have other health risks associated with them? Some of these compounds have not been tested that thoroughly to determine how risky they may be.

 

I have bought a total of about 20 memory cards since 2002. I still have all of them. I would have purchased and processed thousands of rolls of film in that time. (Many vehicle trips would have been required for this too.) And many shots would have required scanning and all of the same digital storage issues of digital photographs.

Edited April 19, 2011 by AlanG

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[AlanG]

Not sure about the 'nobody' or 'any'

 

If you handle metol liquid devs e.g. D76 use rubber gloves, especially if anyone in your family has had an allergy in past.

 

Mix the power devs out of doors.

 

I first processed film and made prints when I was 11 back in 1961. I can't tell you how many times I breathed in the powder from mixing the chemicals, breathed in fumes, or got various chemicals on my hands. It was thousands of times of exposure in some way since I used a darkroom so often. There were virtually no safety instructions. I have no idea if my health has been impacted in some way as a result.

 

I dumped all of my chemicals down the drain for decades. This included, b/w, E3, E4, E6, C-41, CP7, R22, Cibachrome, various toners, potassium ferrocyanide reducers, and lots more. At one point I was running a 3 1/2 gallon nitrogen burst line and a large single shot system. (Sort of like a big double version of a Jobo processor.) So the chemical waste was several gallons a week.

 

This does not make me very happy today when I know more about the health risks and the environmental impact.

Edited April 19, 2011 by AlanG

[Xmas]

Have you ever run a Cibachrome processing lab? Can you show me info about those chemicals and other photo chemicals that do not show that many of them are potential carcinogens or have other health risks associated with them? Some of these compounds have not been tested that thoroughly to determine how risky they may be.

 

I have bought a total of about 20 memory cards since 2002. I still have all of them. I would have purchased and processed thousands of rolls of film in that time. (Many vehicle trips would have been required for this too.) And many shots would have required scanning and all of the same digital storage issues of digital photographs.

 

Cibachrome was color, I said avoid color... sorry if you are dyslex and cannot read, I am too. I was impressed by the caveats on the UK safety sheets for Ciba, I used to use Ciba before dig cameras were available.

 

Even Metol has serious risks, as I also said, & they are well known.

 

I normally buy film in bulk lengths or cine reels, and use the train to pick it up so travel does not comtribute additional petro chemical use, except in margin. You sound like you are from US and have foreigners drilling in deep water, cause you dont have off switches, thermostats or eco autos? Visit an Amish community...

 

Amish Country - Dos and Dont's When Visiting Amish Country

 

I only scan for web pub, light box and wet print instead.

 

Noel

[Xmas]

I first processed film and made prints when I was 11 back in 1961. I can't tell you how many times I breathed in the powder from mixing the chemicals, breathed in fumes, or got various chemicals on my hands. It was thousands of times of exposure in some way since I used a darkroom so often. There were virtually no safety instructions. I have no idea if my health has been impacted in some way as a result.

 

I dumped all of my chemicals down the drain for decades. This included, b/w, E3, E4, E6, C-41, CP7, R22, Cibachrome, various toners, potassium ferrrocyanide reducers, and lots more.

 

This does not make me very happy today when I know more about the health risks and the environmental impact.

 

Simple don't believe a word of this total denial of truth on your part, all the hazards were well published.before '61, in UK at the least, unless my recollection is wrong. I can recall discussing with local chemist about (UK) poison book procedures in '60, he knew me personally and said no I can get you this but dont want to use a different process...

 

And if you were sensitive to metol you would know about it.

 

Noel

[stunsworth]

They may have been published, but were they known to the general public - or at least the general public who did their own D&P? I started developing and printing in the late 60s and had no knowledge of the health hazards involved. While I read books which contained formulas I never bought raw chemicals from the chemist, I always used commercially available develops and fixers.

[AlanG]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Cibachrome was color, I said avoid color... sorry if you are dyslex and cannot read,

 

I am not dyslexic and I can read. You said avoid the color devs. That is just one component of color development. I thought you were trying to be specific as you were with b/w and metol.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

Alan I'm sorry for misunderstanding if you avoid the color dev then it stops you processing colour, even the cine non C41 film?

 

Metol as you suggest is an option i.e. you can use PQ developer instead of a MQ, I now the Q in the PQ is still bad. I use Rodinal as the active agent is close to a normal pain kller, but you need to keep it and the pain kller away from some animals, even in micro does..

 

The Indian sub continent is nearly devoid of vultures cause the vets used a pain killer for cattle which is lethal to vultures, serious consequent feral dog (i.e. rabies) and rat problems

 

Noel

[AlanG]

Simple don't believe a word of this total denial of truth on your part, all the hazards were well published.before '61, in UK at the least, unless my recollection is wrong. I can recall discussing with local chemist about (UK) poison book procedures in '60, he knew me personally and said no I can get you this but dont want to use a different process...

 

And if you were sensitive to metol you would know about it.

 

Noel

 

Thanks for re-assuring me about my health. But at that time I had a custom color printing business so it was hard to avoid the chemicals used in color processing.

 

I studied photography at the Rochester Institute of Technology and at the Polytechnic of Central London and I was never instructed on how to handle the chemicals I was using at either school. At RIT, we did some of the early beta testing of a Cibachrome process around 1970-71 and each kid used a primitive single shot laminar flow Kodak drum processor in total darkness. This almost was aerating the chemicals. You had to pour 4-8 ounces of chemicals into a tray. We were instructed to smell each chemical in advance so as not to mix them up in the dark. It was easy to get some on yourself or spill it. We had no aprons, gloves or respirators. I know one guy who burned holes through his shoes.I do not know how well the labs were ventilated. RIT had mostly individual darkrooms and nobody was supervising you in one. I think the school had more than 100 darkrooms at one time. The first year instruction had some kind of linked two person darkrooms. (So the instructor could move around and see what was going on.) One kid filled up a stop bath tray with concentrated acetic acid because he didn't know that it needed to be diluted. We all had to abandon the darkrooms until the fumes were out of the air. There was a very cavalier attitude about chemicals.

 

In b/w printing, we certainly never even heard that one should move a print into a water bath between the developer and stop to reduce the amount of sulfur dioxide being produced.

 

Whatever they might have known about chemicals and their effects on you back in the 60s and 70s does not mean that there isn't more knowledge and concern for safety today. It once was common for expecting mothers to drink and smoke too.

 

I am simply pointing out that schools are much more careful about exposing students to chemicals today. I don't see how you can disagree with this fact. So I don't get what your point is.

 

Since RIT now offers a degree program in "Environmental Management and Safety" I bet they are much more careful today.

 

Ryerson closed its darkrooms (temporarily?) for safety.

Ryerson darkroom hazardous? | The Eyeopener

 

Indiana University:

http://www.ehs.indiana.edu/IUdarkroomsafety.pdf

 

Wellesley College

http://www.wellesley.edu/Safety/Images/finaldarkroomposters.pdf

 

UNC

UNCG Department of Art | Environmental Health and Safety | Photography Darkroom and Lab

 

Hamilton College

http://www.hamilton.edu/documents/Art%20Photo%20Handbook%20Final%202010-1.pdf

 

RCC (Riverside California?)

http://faculty.rcc.edu/hewitt/Photography/Documents/firstday_lab/DARKROOM%20SAFETY%20from%20Nancy.pdf

Edited April 19, 2011 by AlanG

[Xmas]

They may have been published, but were they known to the general public - or at least the general public who did their own D&P? I started developing and printing in the late 60s and had no knowledge of the health hazards involved. While I read books which contained formulas I never bought raw chemicals from the chemist, I always used commercially available develops and fixers.

Hi Steve

 

Ok so Alan is not teasing me, but I almost never used Metol e.g. D76, cause of the dermatitis, risks..Always used Azol or Rodinal (Azol was a UK clone) instead, and I knew exactly what was in it, in '61, high pH potassium hydroxide is not nice. Ok I'll give you I could have mixed it up from raw from memory, at the time...

 

note Rodinal will work on bromide paper.

 

Azol instructions

 

I'll also give you no safety instructions with this sheet, but that was '30.

 

I always read safey sheets, some were dire.

 

The Ciba said if you spill you probably need to replace floor & beams afterwards, or that is how I read it...

 

The color dev book said rinse off rubber glover after in 1% acetic acid, if contiminated with color dev - now what do you think that meant, means?

 

'The focal guide to color film processing' copyright '78

 

Noel

[AlanG]

Hi

 

Alan I'm sorry for misunderstanding if you avoid the color dev then it stops you processing colour, even the cine non C41 film?

 

 

To me, the word "avoid" meant "do not come into contact with it." You were not very clear in saying we should not do any color processing. Is that your opinion? Did you read any of the safety concerns from the colleges that I linked to. Most were dealing with b/w chemicals.

[adan]

You guys are kind of arguing about a moot point.

 

Film's future (and digital's for that matter) just aren't going to be determined by environmental effects, especially at the user end. I'm sure the "keep it clean" costs for Kodak's factories - and Canon's and Sony's - are already well established and priced into their products. The environmental movement has been active for - oh, about 40 years on these things.

 

I ran a hospital photo lab in the early 80's, and as early as 1983 we were compiling lists of all the chemicals we used, and the safety procedures recommended by the manufacturers, and writing our own policies for handling them - to meet OSHA and EPA and JCAH (Joint Committee for the Accreditation of Hospitals) requirements. We didn't STOP using them - we just had to prove we were using them carefully.

[Xmas]

To me, the word "avoid" meant "do not come into contact with it." You were not very clear in saying we should not do any color processing. Is that your opinion? Did you read any of the safety concerns from the colleges that I linked to. Most were dealing with b/w chemicals.

Hi Alan

 

Yes do not do home color processing, unless you are wilful, rinse the rubble gloves in acetic acid or they wont last long either. It is too easy to splash chemicale, lab workers always have problems.

 

B&W print processig needs an acid stop bath to avoid risk of stains, never used a water tray ever, helps fixer life, normally used non acid fix, cheaper.

 

Face mask and goggles for powder mono chemicals avoid metol and hydroquinone, no D76, no PQ, etc. The only one I'll mix from powder is POTA or a phendine D23 analogue.

 

Did not like your ciba story I used a tube with a light trap, so load in dry prnt arew, fill in good light over sink. A normal large plastic film tank would have done, at a pinch...

 

Noel

P.S. dont read safery notices normally used to visit library google is easier. It is good you posted them, some people may not be aware.

[earleygallery]

I'm more concerned about the risk of alien invasion. We can't do anything to stop it, and we have absolutely no idea what the consequences will be. It's scary!

[NZDavid]

...Given that film is still available as are developers, fixers and all the other chemicals...

 

Only in some places, some countries and big cities now, I'm afraid Andy. You can't import it either -- I guess for environmental or security reasons. No color chemicals available for purchase here for some time, B+W still going but very limited. It may only be time...

[andybarton]

Fair enough. If I lived where you do, I would ahve to seriously consider dropping film altogether. Which is something I wouldn't want to do.

[Xmas]

Hi

 

You can make a Rodinal clone out of drain cleaner (caustic sods) and (pain killer) paracetemol.There are web instructions. 'Hypo' powder should not be impossible to import?

 

Noel

[bill]

...but why would you?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

[earleygallery]

...but why would you?

 

Regards,

 

Bill

 

If you live in New Zealand

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[stunsworth]

...but why would you?

 

Because you'd run out of coffee?

 

Photo Utopia: Developing Film in Coffee