Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #41 Posted April 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) Who has said that film is dying? This gets mentioned often, but I can't ever remember anyone making the claim. Since you ask it would be rude not to try and help, I sugest it would be difficult to find one of Toby's pet threads that do not include this sympathy - an exaguration he sometimes slags of e.g. M3 as being antique etc.,... I was looking at a X100 last week, an M3 is a Prince... I genuinely hope that film is always available for those that want to use it, but let's not pretend it's future is anything other than as a product for enthusiasts.. Suggest you have a PhD in sopistry, film was a product for enthisiasts up until late 60 when fully auto cameras & cartridge loading allowed it to be used by the masses, similar to Phillips compact cassettes allowing audio recording or walkmans (pre MP3 players), the mini lab in 'every' shop is a hang over from this explosion. You used to leave the film with the chemist shop who returned prints and negs a week later. 35mm film has been subsidised by the movie industry who needed a large number of projection copies of each release of each B movie, e.g. D76 or near clones were cost effective movie film devs. Their machinery will need replacing with cheper lower volume, the film will be more expensive. But I can still get it (35MM C41) at my local supermarket. Similarly most of the DSLR people don't use photo shop they move the prints they like to an Ipod, etc., or print. The DSLR all have built in morie processing? You used to be able to buy 35mm in different packaging darkroom loads , daylight loads, etc. they have all gone. They were cheaper, but too difficult, for the masses, donno if they might come back. Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted April 7, 2011 Posted April 7, 2011 Hi Xmas, Take a look here The future of film again. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
adan Posted April 7, 2011 Share #42 Posted April 7, 2011 (edited) "....film was a product for enthisiasts up until late 60 when fully auto cameras & cartridge loading allowed it to be used by the masses,...." Utter and complete BS. Please tell me your knowledge of photo history is better than that! Otherwise you will have to go on my "Ignor(amus)" list. Film was a product for the "masses" the moment Eastman introduced the "Kodak" in 1888. The whole point of "film" - as opposed to glass plates - was to make photography more accesible to the masses. No dark slides, no loading each picture separately. 100 pictures in a box - "You push the button - we do the rest." One dollar. Photo below was taken by a rural dairy farmer's wife (my grandmother) in 1929. Definitely part of the "masses". (My great-grandparents, grandfather, and mother, age 15 months or so). Almost certainly with the same Box Brownie my mother still had in 1970, which I fiddled around with in my first years taking pictures: No.2A Brownie Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here… Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! Edited April 7, 2011 by adan 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members! ' data-webShareUrl='https://www.l-camera-forum.com/topic/148389-the-future-of-film-again/?do=findComment&comment=1638934'>More sharing options...
gyoung Posted April 7, 2011 Share #43 Posted April 7, 2011 Toby speaks once again, and we get three pages of consternation Best treatment for trolls is to ignore................... Gerry Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 7, 2011 Share #44 Posted April 7, 2011 Suggest you have a PhD in sopistry, film was a product for enthisiasts up until late 60 when fully auto cameras & cartridge loading allowed it to be used by the masses... Really? As someone who grew up in the 50s and 60s I remember lots of people using film cameras. Most of my relatives had film cameras, none of them as far as I know were photographic enthusiasts. From the box brownie onwards cameras have been marketed to attract the point and shoot brigade. My grandfather had a (poor) folding 620 camera that he used a couple of times a year. There were many, many such cameras aimed at just such people. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
andybarton Posted April 7, 2011 Share #45 Posted April 7, 2011 Suggest you have a PhD in sopistry, film was a product for enthisiasts up until late 60 when fully auto cameras & cartridge loading allowed it to be used by the masses, So, what were all those Box Brownie shots made with? There were millions of people of all types quite happily loading roll film into their Brownies and all sorts of other cameras. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #46 Posted April 7, 2011 I beg to differ the number of cameras increased enormously post 1960, Nikon made 700k Nikon Fs '59 and on - before '59 they struggled to compete with Leitz in volume.. Canon made rather more SLRs and even more Canonets. The Canonet drop in film loading allowed 35mm for the masses. They were not bottom loaders like Barnacks. Yes I'm aware ot Eastmanns, e.g. 1888 cameras the volume of photography went up in 1970 becuase the cameras were even easier to use, and the film, prints and cameras even cheaper in real terms. The late boom in photography allowed a 20 minute mini lab at both ends of every high street. In 1970 it was one week in chemist shop, and he only had a few yellow print envelopes pending even mid summer. We will slowly go back to posting off film for dev or home processing, buying it by post, more expensve in real terms. The chemist will not stock it. My local chemist never stocked daylight loads or darkroom loads, only 35mm cassettes... Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted April 7, 2011 Share #47 Posted April 7, 2011 Advertisement (gone after registration) what is problem with closing labs? it is easy to develop film home even with 3 wifes and 20 children. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomasis7 Posted April 7, 2011 Share #48 Posted April 7, 2011 I think there should be a sticky "Bad News for Film" thread and a sticky "Good News for Film" thread - where people can post their individual, anecdotal (and thus not representative of the Big Picture - whatever it may be) tales. Then people can just read whatever suits their prejudices. really good idea.. !! shall I create both threads to keep trolls in one thread? Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stunsworth Posted April 7, 2011 Share #49 Posted April 7, 2011 I beg to differ the number of cameras increased enormously post 1960... You're probably correct, but to characterise the majority of film users before that as enthusiasts is incorrect IMHO. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #50 Posted April 7, 2011 Hi Would not that warrant that the trolls were on the good news for film thread? Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted April 7, 2011 Share #51 Posted April 7, 2011 Rather I just see someone reporting their experience. I guess you must've missed the other thousand times the OP has reported his "experience" Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
adan Posted April 7, 2011 Share #52 Posted April 7, 2011 I beg to differ the number of cameras increased enormously post 1960... You have figures? That include the millions of box cameras for the masses that Kodak and others sold before 1960? And take into account overall population growth (Baby Boom, etc.) It is true that the number of - 35mm - cameras increased as a percentage of the market, replacing the roll-film box cameras. Thanks to the Japanese influx. In 1950 the masses bought Brownies, in 1965 they bought Canonets. The masses changed the kind of cameras and film they used - but they were taking film pictures in large numbers long before 1960. I'd suggest that the big increase in photography in the 1960s-1970s was precisely NOT the masses (above and beyond general population growth) - but the "enthusiasts". Who took photo classes in college, saw "Blow Up," and moved to the more sophisticated SLRs and RFs over simple cameras, dreaming of being sexy pros or LIFE photographers or "artists." The late boom in photography allowed a 20 minute mini lab at both ends of every high street. In 1970 it was one week in chemist shop, and he only had a few yellow print envelopes pending even mid summer. The arrival of the mini-lab was simply technological development (no pun intended). Computerized controls made it possible to compress a big sink-and-darkroom into a light-tight machine that could be run on the "High Street" without worrying (as much) about chemical waste and such. Again - allowing for overall population growth - the minilabs resulted in a corresponding DECREASE in the number of remote labs. Kodak had 20+ labs world-wide at one point - a dozen in the US. Minilabs reduced that to 2, and then one and then none. But that was just a change in WHERE the masses got film processed - not how much. The rule was still "You push the button. We do the rest." The "You" did not change, only the "We." The "one roll of film containing both summer vacation pictures and Xmas holiday pictures" was just as common in the mini-lab era as it was in the remote-lab era. (for that matter, it is still around in the digital era - my wife's SD cards usually have 6 months of collected images on them. ) film was a product for enthisiasts up until late 60 when fully auto cameras & cartridge loading allowed it to be used by the masses remains a ridiculous statement, at least as applied to this planet. Film was a product for the masses from 1888 on. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 7, 2011 Share #53 Posted April 7, 2011 You're probably correct, but to characterise the majority of film users before that as enthusiasts is incorrect IMHO. Hi Yes I'd agree, the users were very varible in awareness, but I think the earlier % of enthusist was much larger than today, than you might like to think. Some of them were P&S types get the chemist to load and unload the film! One uncle could not manage parrallex, he could load 120 film... Another uncle had a 620 box brownie, he could load the flm ok every time, processed his own negs, used pop paper, fixed the cameras of the villages for several miles, around, when they broke. It was '58 before he got his first 35mm to repair. He waves the camera at me, and says the owner is a farmer who cannot start his tractor, the camera is jammed, what is wrong with it? The exposure counter is at 20? No 21... Push the rewind button and turn the rewind knob until it is slack. Sniff....What next? Open back remove cassette, if it says 20 exp, wind film back into cassette. He forgot he loaded a 20 exp cassette? Yes... How much do I charge? Is he rich? Yes 5£, tell him not to use so much force on the camera again... Even some of the 620 box users were enthus, lots could not use a camera at all, but did not use a lot of film, 9 shots on 120 6x9 & back to chemist for reload, the boom post 60, was cheap film, cheap prints, and easy (easier) to use cheap cameras. Few years ago on the Strand London walk past two pretty girls seconds later squeal from one and they both run back and I think my mate (Wigglypig) had annoyed them by taking a picture. No instead they want the film removed from their Canon AE-1 and a new one reloaded - the squeal was they spotted we had film cameras... The AE-1 has a drop-in quick load, the problem is where the rewind clutch button is and which knob to turn... they were using APX400! Difficult dialogue in schoolgirl Engish and my broken French. They were art people and liked the mono abstraction. The easier to use cameras cheaper in real terms expanded the number of people who could afford & would attempt to use cameras... Some were enthusiats some tusk. The pool of enthusiasts was much larger for the affordability. Not al the people who bought Nikon F were even users, let alone enthusists. The must be a lot of the 700k in drawers. Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
biglouis Posted April 13, 2011 Share #54 Posted April 13, 2011 I am pretty surprised at what I have observed recently. I get my 120 rolls processed at a store in Tottenham Court Road which has a whole cabinet devoted to every kind of Lomo camera you can visualise (including a very sweet looking TLR). At the weekends there have been 2-3 people waiting to purchase them. What's happening? Hasn't anyone told these curious 20-somethings that film is dead? Probably a passing phase but then that's what they said about the iPhone and now you aren't dressed unless you have one with you. LouisB Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 13, 2011 Share #55 Posted April 13, 2011 Hi Louis There is a dedicated Lomo shop in Spitalfields market on a Commercial Street corner. It has a mini lab... They seem to be busy. Their HP5x36 is 6.50 but they are open Sunday... I allus let a Lomo kid try my M2 or Camon P, if they show any interest. their cameras are not cheap for plastic... Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sblitz Posted April 13, 2011 Share #56 Posted April 13, 2011 as for the masses and film, production has moved to make it easier for film to be loaded and/or developed. it is not a long line, from a marketing perspective, to go from polaroids and instamatics to a digital camera to a camera in a phone. check out some of those old adds from the 1890s and later for the brownie and see what they were advertising to the masses. as for young people getting interested in film i think there is an overall interest in many to get involved in processes where there was more of an organic type of connection between you and the output. there has been a surge in demand for manual typewriters. in sum, film is not coming back for the masses, it will remain forever, or so i would like to think so. on the other hand vhs destroyed beta (which was better) and they were both destroyed by dvds and now it is all streamed online and the "video camera" is all on a flash card. does anyone here still lug around an 8mm bolex to take home movies? nostalgia for that? carry around those big lights that melted ice cream cakes at b-day parties hard economics will make film and processing more expensive as time goes on, as long as there are enough people out there willing to pay the price for their passion. i, for one, certainly hope so. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted April 13, 2011 Share #57 Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) My two favorite fun cameras are Super Ikontas, the little 6x4.5 and the big 6x9. Both are rangefinders, and as you know, they use common 120 film. I think 120 will be around for a long time because the quality of the images, and the very fine cameras for 120, and rolll-film backs made for LF are still in demand. This is a snapshot made with the 6x9. That's my colleague, Drake Hokanson. He and I are retiring this year. I'd post more but my scanner is kaput. And speaking of enthusiasts, consider how dauntingly expensive the Super Ikontas were in their time and the volume sold - one would think it was a prosperous time, but it really wasn't. Edited April 13, 2011 by pico Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 13, 2011 Share #58 Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) Could I suggest 10-20 shorter posts in this thread Whoever feels like answering, please do so: "How many films has your lab for you / have you processed in 2011?" Here, 3 TriX coming out of two TLR Rolleiflex, all shot in one session. Cheers, Simon Edited April 13, 2011 by Guest Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasticman Posted April 13, 2011 Share #59 Posted April 13, 2011 (edited) This is a snapshot made with the 6x9. That's my colleague, Drake Hokanson. Great image. As for Tri's question - I think something like ten or twelve rolls of 35mm and only two or possibly three rolls of 120 so far. Not much. But we've had a horribly grey, bitterly cold and miserable winter in Stockholm, so I haven't been keen to get out with the cameras. edit: I re-read Tri's post - I have three rolls waiting to be developed - they're included in the approx figures above Edited April 13, 2011 by plasticman Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xmas Posted April 13, 2011 Share #60 Posted April 13, 2011 Hi mono 32 x 36 various bulk loaded 45 x36 pending developing color C41 rather more all pending Noel Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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