M8 Firmware ?

[bill]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Stalin & similar others when they didnt like the content of the conversation were baptising the contributors mentaly disturbed or "whiners".

 

...are you seriously comparing responses to threads on an internet forum to one of the most murderous dictators of all time?

[sbelyaev]

...are you seriously comparing responses to threads on an internet forum to one of the most murderous dictators of all time?

 

Was that Stalin, Hitler, Napoleon, church / inquisition, crusades...?

 

People should stop talking about things that they have not experienced/ are unfamiliar with (Stalin is included).

 

I wish suggestions were more constructive.

 

If forum members spent all this time making money instead of arguing about insignificant things, they would treat M8, M9 or any digital camera the way digital cameras are supposed to be treated - disposables.

 

If Leica doesn't want to work with the customers on real issues, then good luck to Leica..

There are many other camera companies.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

...are you seriously comparing responses to threads on an internet forum to one of the most murderous dictators of all time?

no comparisons just M8 EVOLUTION -it was someone else"s post that mention that photographers

that expect the M8 evolution are to be study for " behavior" by specialist-no comments BIll.

And these "whiners,internet behavior,psychologist,complainers"is not a photographic respond to fellow photographers-or i like to believe so.Maybe is just me that believes that this forum is a good place to share thoughts,needs and observations on our equipments.

Edited May 30, 2010 by Angelos Viskadourakis

[ottocrat]

First Godwin I've witnessed on this forum, what a glorious achievement!

 

/golf clap

[mjh]

one of the most important point about M8 and the future of the M system as a part of Leica experience & future. (…) Stalin & similar others when they didnt like the content of the conversation were baptising the contributors mentaly disturbed or "whiners".

I think that’s where you are losing a lot of people, including me: too much drama. No, this is clearly not “the most important point” about the M8 or the M system in general, and bringing Stalin et al. into the discussion does nothing to make anyone take your issues seriously.

 

I am fairly confident there will be another firmware update for the M8, but even if the M8 firmware should stay frozen in its current state, it would not be that much of an issue. If you think different, it might be a good idea to focus on the issues you want to be addressed – something you are saying very little about –, but cut out the drama.

[dcoombs]

First Godwin I've witnessed on this forum, what a glorious achievement!

 

/golf clap

 

First I've heard of Godwin's Law. Just checked Wikipedia on him. How apt!

 

Thanks for the reference.

 

Doug

[Angelos Viskadourakis]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I think that’s where you are losing a lot of people, including me: too much drama. No, this is clearly not “the most important point” about the M8 or the M system in general, and bringing Stalin et al. into the discussion does nothing to make anyone take your issues seriously.

 

I am fairly confident there will be another firmware update for the M8, but even if the M8 firmware should stay frozen in its current state, it would not be that much of an issue. If you think different, it might be a good idea to focus on the issues you want to be addressed – something you are saying very little about –, but cut out the drama.

 

you are absolutely right,i 'm just very offended from a fellow's post (pgk or Paul) that suggests people that are talking about M8 evolution have to be study as psychopaths and a case to be study for human behavior,just check that post above and you will excuse and comprehend my comment.

 

issues to be addressed:

 

1/manual lens recognition

 

2/unlock of the 16 bit DNG function.

 

3/iso and ev adjustment from the button in the back. (very important).

 

4/paid -any price-hardware change(AD Convertor) for lower noise in higher iso-dont consider very important though and is propably too much and too ambitious-.

 

5/interval iso settings : 80-240-400-800-1000 iso (for me the most important).

 

i carefully read your posts and i have learn a lot from you.Thank you.

 

"usenet threads virtually always outlive their usefulness"

Edited May 30, 2010 by Angelos Viskadourakis

[ho_co]

Great wish-list, Angelos!

 

But aren't your first three points already recognized as items that can't be handled without hardware changes? I seem to recall Stefan approaching one or two of them in the LuLa M9 intro video.

 

If so, then I think all would fall into the category of "must pay for hardware upgrade."

 

 

Manual lens setting--not enough ROM memory IIRC.

 

"Unlock" uncompressed DNG--not possible for same reason. There's nothing to "unlock," because the camera simply writes compressed DNGs. It never generates an uncompressed one.

 

Change function of buttons--requires change of logic board.

 

You give what seems to me a strange list of ISOs, but Leica might be able to insert missing values in 1/3-stop intervals with firmware. That seems less 'impossible' to me than the others, but I don't know how the multiplications are accomplished. I doubt we would get anything with a lower ISO than the native sensitivity of the sensor.

Edited May 31, 2010 by ho_co

[sfokevin]

First Godwin I've witnessed on this forum, what a glorious achievement!

 

/golf clap

 

...reductio ad Hitlerum...

 

This thread it Great!... I have learned so much about photography, psychology... And now new Wiki terminology!!...

 

I would also point out the Margaret Thatcher used to call her detractors Moaning Minnies - So it is not just Murderous Dictators that use that debate tactic..

 

I vote the administrator pin this as a M8 perpetual thread!!!

 

Back to the specifics of the thread... (Angelos thanks for the summary to get us back on track)

 

I don't see why coding the manual lens selection option would take all that much coding space (they could remove all the S mode code if need be!)... And for Leica it would be a way to gracefully end the firmware updates for the M8... They would not have to do future firmware updates for newly released lenses... That would make my M8 a camera I would keep for a lifetime...

Edited May 31, 2010 by sfokevin

[ho_co]

... And for Leica it would be a way to gracefully end the firmware updates for the M8... They would not have to do future firmware updates for newly released lenses...

??

 

So new lenses wouldn't be settable in the M8? Or do you recommend that they publish in this final update exactly what future lenses will be usable with the M8, so that once all were introduced we would know that either the M8 would not be able to use future lenses, or Leica was closing up shop?

[pgk]

I 'm just very offended from a fellow's post (pgk or Paul) that suggests people that are talking about M8 evolution have to be study as psychopaths and a case to be study for human behavior

I did nothing of the kind:eek:. My observation was based on the human ability to carry on a discussion after perfectly adequate answers have already been given, and to totally ignore their logic. As with so many threads the fundamental problem here appears to be confusing the possible with the desirable and expecting an instantaneous solution to both.

 

To me 'support' means providing firmware upgrades which will deal with issues which may arise - such as support for a new generation of SDHC cards if these become available and it is possible to allow the M8 to use them.

 

Your wish list is a request that the M8 is 'upgraded' to include yet more M9 features and whilst this might be desirable, it may well be neither possible nor economically viable.

 

If you can't accept criticism I would suggest not posting. Strong opinions can and are expressed here and whilst most are couched in polite terms, not all are. My comment was intended as dry humour and was not an accusation that you are a psychopath. By the way what was 'suspicious' - I am still puzzled over this:confused:?

[plasticman]

"Unlock" uncompressed DNG--not possible for same reason. There's nothing to "unlock," because the camera simply writes compressed DNGs. It never generates an uncompressed one.

 

Just to correct this one point - the M8 produces 16-bit DNGs natively. All pre-release cameras did this during testing (the pre-release LFI preview unit wrote 16-bit DNGs, for instance). The ability was removed as one of the last updates to firmware just before the public release of the camera (to speed writing to the card).

 

With no disrespect, I think one of the reasons this sort of thread goes on and on is that there's so much FUD that goes around and around - sometimes, as in this case, perpetuated unwittingly.

[ho_co]

Mani, I won't argue.

 

I think Angelos is talking about the difference between uncompressed and compressed DNGs, and that's the point I was addressing.

 

The M8 does produce 16-bit DNGs. They are expanded from 14-bit sensor output, and the compression stores them in 8 bits. Michael Hußmann's article went through the simple algorithm.

 

After the pre-production camera you mention, and after seeing the results that were later published in LFI, Leica decided to use the compressed version only. The ability to produce uncompressed DNGs was removed from the production cameras. At least, that's what I recall from the LFI article.

 

Remember, there was a big hullaballoo on the forum about "letting us see the two side by side, so we can make up our own minds." At that time it came out clearly that the current camera cannot write uncompressed files. And IIRC Stefan Daniel repeated this in the LuLa interview. That's why the LFI article had to go back to the old files to get the comparison they published.

 

So in my mind, there seems to be a confusion between 16-bit and 14-bit, as well as a conflation between that question and the question of compression.

 

And as I read it, the M9 demonstrates that there is no advantage to writing uncompressed files, except for the fact that it automatically adjusts blackpoint with changes in ISO in a way the M8 doesn't.

 

So getting the ability to write uncompressed DNGs in the M8 would be both expensive and useless as I understand it.

 

As you said, there's a lot of confusion. Most of these questions have been answered repeatedly. But for some reason, someone always wants to ask again. And I'm just like so many others, answering what I recall rather than approaching the question in a scholarly fashion.

 

It's amazing that a thread that just repeats old arguments can go on for over 130 posts, and even when a point is decisively answered, someone pops up ignoring the response. Ain't we havin' fun?

Edited May 31, 2010 by ho_co

[jaapv]

Whilst I don't agree, Howard, that there is NO difference between compressed and uncompressed files, I do agree that it is irrellevant in most cases. But I do see some difference in very carefully postprocessed files especially in the highlights. The uncompressed file seems to have slightly better rendering of subtle stuctures, and seems to be able to absorb a bit more sharpening before running into artefacts. But it is very,very slight. And somehow the DMR files are even more robust and subtle than M9 uncompressed...

Given that the M8 seems to slow down to a snailpace when using uncompressed files I think Leica made the correct choice in going for the compression, which to all intents and purposes is virtually lossless.

Edited May 31, 2010 by jaapv

[mjh]

"Unlock" uncompressed DNG--not possible for same reason. There's nothing to "unlock," because the camera simply writes compressed DNGs. It never generates an uncompressed one.

While that is true – as far as I can tell, there has never been an M8 creating uncompressed DNG files *) –, it would not be too difficult changing the firmware to write uncompressed DNGs. The code would even be slighter simpler. But making this an option (which it would have to be) would again increase the code size. And whether this was possible or not, I suppose the suggestion would never make it to the “How?” stage as it would already fail in the “Why?” round.

 

*) The famous preproduction M8 writing uncompressed raw data was not creating DNG files but some extremely raw format that only Leica could decode – something more like a memory dump rather than a real file format. It was never intended for public consumption.

 

You give what seems to me a strange list of ISOs, but Leica might be able to insert missing values in 1/3-stop intervals with firmware. That seems less 'impossible' to me than the others, but I don't know how the multiplications are accomplished. I doubt we would get anything with a lower ISO than the native sensitivity of the sensor.

An additional ISO pull step would be possible in theory but require more code; being of only limited usefulness I don’t see that coming. Additional ISO steps could be simulated in code by amplifying the sensor data digitally (i.e. by simply multiplying the digitized values by 1.26 (+ 1/3 EV) or 1.59 (+ 2/3 EV)). Again, whether such a change would offer any real benefits remains doubtful.

[plasticman]

This I genuinely don't understand: the M8 sensor outputs a signal which has to go through a compression algorithm (throwing away information), to output an 8-bit file, but it is somehow impossible for it to not go through this compression stage to write a 16-bit file?

(and here I am disregarding the niceties of 14 or 16 bit differentiation - plenty of cameras claim 16-bit output when actually working with 14-bits of effective data).

 

Oh well, if you say so... I must say the issue would be more important to me if I were a pro working with this camera. As far as I'm concerned, as an amateur mostly using my film camera at the moment, it would just be nice to have.

 

I'll dig out that old LFI when I have time - I think I recall that the comparison image was of a car and its chrome bumper(?) I'd rather they'd compared some blown highlights instead.

[luigi bertolotti]

This I genuinely don't understand: the M8 sensor outputs a signal which has to go through a compression algorithm (throwing away information), to output an 8-bit file, but it is somehow impossible for it to not go through this compression stage to write a 16-bit file?

.....

As other have pointed, managing an uncompressed DNG file would slow significantly the in camera processing, maybe putting at risk some option like continuous shooting; besides this, there are also the lens-specific corrections related to lens recognition on and UVIR filter usage... in-camera algorithms performed in the same timed pipeline before DNG writing: probably, they ought to be rewritten when applied to a 16 bit file: I think that it wouldn't be so simple to "come back" to 14/16 bit uncompressed, and, probably, impossible in practice to implement into M8 the comp/uncomp option.

[plasticman]

As other have pointed, managing an uncompressed DNG file would slow significantly the in camera processing, maybe putting at risk some option like continuous shooting; besides this, there are also the lens-specific corrections related to lens recognition on and UVIR filter usage... in-camera algorithms performed in the same timed pipeline before DNG writing: probably, they ought to be rewritten when applied to a 16 bit file: I think that it wouldn't be so simple to "come back" to 14/16 bit uncompressed, and, probably, impossible in practice to implement into M8 the comp/uncomp option.

 

Well all of this is pure supposition, of course. In that respect I don't see the point in discussing the actual practicalities as we have no insight into the firmware capabilities of the M8. It remains as an item on a wishlist - nothing more.

[sfokevin]

??

 

So new lenses wouldn't be settable in the M8? Or do you recommend that they publish in this final update exactly what future lenses will be usable with the M8, so that once all were introduced we would know that either the M8 would not be able to use future lenses, or Leica was closing up shop?

 

My thought was that a manual lens selection mode similar to what was introduced on the M9 would give us an option to play and choose a lens profile similar to any new lens... otherwise a new lens with a 6 bit coding that was not in the M8 list would have to be modified by changing the 6 bit code color - something I would prefer NOT to do to a new lens out of the box...

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[ho_co]

And somehow the DMR files are even more robust and subtle than M9 uncompressed... ...

1) Don't DMR files have the advantage of being true 16-bit? The only 35mm-format camera with true 16-bit file depth, I think.

 

Whilst I don't agree ... that there is NO difference between compressed and uncompressed files, I do agree that it is irrellevant in most cases. But I do see some difference in very carefully postprocessed files especially in the highlights. The uncompressed file seems to have slightly better rendering of subtle stuctures, and seems to be able to absorb a bit more sharpening before running into artefacts. But it is very,very slight. ...

 

2) Because of the way the M9's noise reduction adjusts blackpoint, there's definitely a difference between compressed and uncompressed files, even though a small one. I agree completely with your formulation.

 

3) But since the M8 doesn't use an automatic blackpoint adjustment, we can't project differences between M9 compressed and uncompressed files onto the M8.

 

 

... I'll dig out that old LFI when I have time - I think I recall that the comparison image was of a car and its chrome bumper(?) I'd rather they'd compared some blown highlights instead.

4) (Mani, I think you're right about the LFI files in question.) The problem with any particular comparison is that someone can find fault with it--"why didn't they test XXX?" or "but the problems will show up at higher magnification" etc. The only meaningful comparison is one over a period of time such as Jaap mentions.

 

5) IIRC, Stefan Daniel said in the LuLa video that the M9 got the choice of uncompressed files "because you wanted it." That is, it required a new model to get it; it can't be added to the M8, for whatever reason.

Edited June 1, 2010 by ho_co