How common are quality control issues?

[mattcheol]

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Just a quick wondering... and this post may be in the wrong category, perhaps it belongs in the general discussion? Sorry in advance if so.

 It's been a while now, but sometime last year I bought a brand new 35mm Summilux Close Focus from Leica USA and it came to me with a superficial defect, where the white paint of the "2" on the focusing scale wasn't painted between the lines. Is this type of thing common? At the time, it really frustrated me. To me it screams lack of quality control. I decided not to bring it up or return it because I knew it was just superficial and I didn't want to part with the lens for any amount of time. Since then however, my M11 kept freezing, had overexposure issues, corrupt files... and all of the other known issues documented on this site. The LCD also somehow demonstrated defects although it was never bumped/dropped/damaged in any known way. I decided to sell the M11 and for whatever reason, justified a purchase of an M11-P, because I guess maybe new hardware = less issues? Well that package never arrived because Leica made a mistake with the shipping and it was "returned to sender" So I just cancelled the M11-P order, sold the M11, and have been somewhat jaded about Leica as a brand ever since. So I guess long story short, I was just wondering how often defects like the one with my lens' occur? 

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[28framelines]

My MP had a misaligned rangefinder brand new out of the box in 2021. It seems like a lot of people on this forum have had issues, but then you have to consider that a forum like this overindexes on people with issues and questions. That being said… personally, I see fewer complaints about Voigtlander lenses, but that may also be because many Voigtlander lenses are 5-10x cheaper than the Leica equivalent but offer 98% of the quality if not BETTER quality.

EDIT: changed the ending sentence, because I believe people need to really start seeing Voigtlander not as a runner up but honestly, a leader for M-mount. They offer many options that are simply better than Leica. This might be a salacious opinion though.

Edited March 12 by 28framelines

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[hmzimelka]

For me, QC with Leica lenses has been abysmal... the only Leica lens I bought new and kept is a Summicron-M 50mm V, but it came with missing paint in one section.

 

Last month would have been my fourth attempt at buying a new 50mm Summilux ASPH, this time the new Close Focus version. That lens had a front focus while pointing down or horizontal, and a back focus while pointing up. The ring that drives the cameras rangefinder cam was loose to the touch and would wobble on one side of the lens. The lens would also not reach infinity focus at f/1.4. Only by f/2.5 was it acceptable. 

The Summilux 35mm ASPH FLE Close focus I tried at the same time was so stiff to focus it would hurt my fingers since Leica have made the focus tabs quite sharp at the edges. Eventually the stiffness loosened up a little but still far too stiff, just for the entire front lens assembly from the focus ring to become slightly loose. Switching focus directions would feel like some kind of mechanical play/knocking which felt really bad. The lens focused accurately, but it had enough focus shift to loose subject focus at apertures f/2.8 and f/4. Only at f/5.6 would the subject fall into the field of focus again.

The year before, I tried an APO Summicron-M 50mm ASPH. That lens didn't reach critical infinity focus at all by f/4, and it was also slightly de-centred with one edge showing harsh astigmatism.

Before that I tried the Summilux 35mm ASPH FLE version I, and that was decent although the hood was loose and quite poor in feel. It felt like it would fall off the moment I walked out the shop. This lens had less focus shift than the one I tried last month, and the subject wouldn't really leave acceptable focus at any aperture. 
At the same time I also tried the Summilux 35mm Steel Rim Reissue, which was so far the best sample of a new lens I've had yet from Leica. Everything felt good, expect the loose aperture ring and the images showed a mid-zone dip that I felt weren't there in online image samples I've seen.

Then by far the worst lens from Leica was the APO Summicron-M 75mm, which had such a huge front focus that nothing reached sharp focus even at f/8. Infinity hard stop was also a very far throw from being infinity. 

Most of the above lenses were also compared against an in store M11, which was essentially exactly the same as my own M11. 

 

My entry into Leica M system started with a Monochrom in early 2014. That ended up a disaster and I returned to Nikon after going through four different M Monochrom cameras. That scared me off enough that I only dared to try again in November 2021 with a M10M Wetzlar. That camera showed the bifurcation issue quite prominently, and it was a heated debate with Leica to get them to accept a return, because they deemed it "in spec." They would not send me another unit if I wasn't prepared to keep it, even if it had bifurcation. This shocked me and the retailer. I guess Monochrom cameras just don't sell in South Africa. 

I ended up waiting for an M11, which I got and returned due to a Rangefinder window defect where a frame or baffle was skew. Then the second M11 had a really strong bifurcation that took almost no editing to show. My third M11 has been behaving until the recent 2.0.1 and 2.0.2 Firmwares. FW 1.6.1 was great and problem free. 

The issues I've had with Leica over the last 2.5 years have really taken a lot of joy out of photography. I've contemplated going back to Nikon a few times, but sticking with M has been an emotional decision and definitely not a rational one. 

Edited March 12 by hmzimelka

[Al Brown]

Do the search of the forum to get an overview.... from collapsing diaphragm blades on 35mm lenses to paint chipping of brand new special edition M-As to pressure plate film scratching of new M6's, it is a fun read.

Whereas it is true that only flaws are reported and good working units are not reported PLUS that this happens to many brands, we need to take the company size (small) into consideration when determining "overall damage".

Leica's QC has definitely been too sloppy lately. THis and their repair lead times (7 months and more) - all things that can be mended easily - will not bring anything good long term.
 

Edited March 12 by Al Brown

[lct]

7 hours ago, mattcheol said:

Is this type of thing common?

QC problems became in the seventies / eighties after the M5 debacle if memory serves. My T-E 90/2.8 had much more paint issues in 1981 than the OP's lens now. I did not complain then as the mode was not in whining for everything. For "protecting" filters and hood caps either but this is (almost) another story 😄

[wizard]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb mattcheol:

... and it came to me with a superficial defect, where the white paint of the "2" on the focusing scale wasn't painted between the lines.

While this should not have passed QC, it would have been really easy to fix. Just scratch the excess paint on the lens barrel away with your fingernail and you are good. Usually, the excess paint will be wiped off at the factory when still uncured, but it was forgotten here (likely, the "2" was repainted for some reason without wiping off the excess paint).

[TomB_tx]

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I haven't experienced Leica's QC problems myself, but since 1985 the only new Leica items have been my M9, M10, and a V5 50 Summicron. Those have been fine. Yes, the M9 did get its sensor replaced after 7 years, at no cost.

I intentionally avoid FLE lenses as I don't like their mechanical complexity - more to go wrong. My Summarit 2.5s were all bought used, and are fine. Otherwise my recent (15 years) lens purchases have been non-Leica. My Zeiss 35 f2 ZM did need focus calibration - DAG did that fine.

[KFo]

I've no issues with new Leica stuff, however reading here problems seem endemic.

You can't inspect in quality.  They have process problems to solve.

[hansvons]

14 hours ago, mattcheol said:

So I just cancelled the M11-P order, sold the M11, and have been somewhat jaded about Leica as a brand ever since.

If I were you, I'd be properly upset. 

Without a "but", I suggest taking this as a sign and getting a Leica M10-P in excellent working order. It's probably the pinnacle of Leica's digital Ms and not entirely a collectible. 

---

Like any other company in Europe that relies on highly skilled workers, Leica experiences an unprecedented staff shortage. This trend was already on the horizon after the financial crisis of 2007 but was unexpectedly exacerbated by the Covid crisis. In my view, the current customer care situation at Leica is a mixture of not very prudent personnel policy and sheer bad luck. 

[LINHOF_]

Adding on wobbling aperture ring and messed up lens hoods design for the Steel Rim......

[mmradman]

Even Leica apologists stopped defending Leica.  Lens should never passed QC, it is not a scratch card for owner to rub off excess paint it see if it is winner or lemon. If I was owner I would request clean copy, after all it is supposed to be premium product. 

Why is this happening so often, my guess there seems to be anarchist cell embedded in the work force and now and again showing two fingers to the clientele.

[lct]

33 minutes ago, mmradman said:

Why is this happening so often, my guess there seems to be anarchist cell embedded in the work force and now and again showing two fingers to the clientele

Haha an old story suggested that Leica used to appoint trainee students for its QC but it did not say they were students in photography 😄

Edited March 12 by lct

[mmradman]

13 minutes ago, lct said:

Haha an old story suggested that Leica used to appoint trainee studiants for its QC but it did not say they were studiants in photography 😄

Pay peanuts get monkeys.

[RexGig0]

Well, to help balance the replies, I have not had QC issues with Leica cameras or lenses, but, my sample size is small, if we count only new cameras and lenses; just one original-version M10, bought new in April 2018, from Houston Camera Exchange, the authorized Leica dealer in Houston, Texas, and one “Re-Edition” Steel Rim Summilux 35, bought new at the end of June 2023, direct from Leica USA. The “Re-Edition” did arrive with what seems to be the first-run threaded hood, that vignettes, but, I am not perturbed, because I already had a threaded Rainbow Imaging hood that can be used, instead. The aperture ring moves, smoothly, without wobble, and the plastic hood, that is a replica of the vintage Steel Rims’ original, remains in place well enough.

To be clear, I am not denying what anyone else has reported, or being an apologist. If I had the wealth to justify spending ~$9K US for a camera, I would, indeed, be quite leery of buying an M11-series camera, due to the volume of well-detailed negative reports. 

On a side note, I do advocate buying pre-owned equipment. I have the good fortune of living near Houston, Texas, so can inspect and test-shoot pre-owned lenses and cameras, including Leica brand, at a professional-oriented camera store, that is a Leica dealer. (The market for Leica is small enough, in this area, that very few new bodies or new lenses are ever kept in the inventory.) I started Leica M shooting with a pre-owned Summilux-M 50mm ASPH, that I was able to test-shoot, during several visits, on pre-owned and demonstrator M9 and M Type 240 cameras, while being coached in rangefinder shooting, by patient employees. Not all of us can drive “into town” to buy pre-owned or new equipment, but, there are well-established stores/dealers/sellers, with good reputations, in on-line commerce. 

 

 

Edited March 14 by RexGig0

[Smudgerer]

Yes I have had more than my fair share of QC issues with new Leica M cameras and lenses, plus a couple of instances with "Leica Certified" pre-owned gear bought from Leica Stores, all in all enough to make me very wary of buying Leica but that wariness hasn't actually managed to completely stop me from doing so either. Leica Camera is as we know a relatively small company in the world of camera and lens makers and the M line is still very much a hand-built camera overall compared to others so yes human-error hiccups are multiplied in that environment more so than in automated manufacturing, and the more humans that are in that manufacturing chain the more expensive the process becomes, especially so when the products are made within the EU because of the strong employment regulations and high tax rates. We get with an M what we have to pay for, a relatively hand built camera made by relatively well paid Leica employees..................Even so, that's no excuse for the lack of good QC on Leica's part, in fact simply because the cameras and lenses ARE comparatively hand-built that alone is a reason for much stronger, more effective, QC on Leica's part to find the "human errors" before they leave the factory and drop into the hands of customers who will be unhappy and frustrated at what it can take to address the problems properly with Leica after sale.

[TomB_tx]

The M4 came out when Leitz should have been about the peak of quality. I remember a US photo magazine (either Modern or Popular Photography) did a review and strip-down inspection of the new camera (likely by Norman Goldberg). After strip-down the reviewer noted it was a very nice camera, after he finished it for them...

I read that just after buying my new M4 - so I checked it as best I could, and found nothing wrong.

Edited March 14 by TomB_tx

[lct]

No problem with my M3 & M4 but i got shutter issues with my M4-2 in the eighties. I suppose the Leitz QC omitted to test it with the then new Leica Winder.

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[Al Brown]

 

[brickftl]

My Q3 that I got in August turned into a brick in December. It couldn't be fixed without some electronic board that is on indefinite backorder and Leica had no idea when they'd get it. After throwing a few fits, I finally got someones attention at Leica USA who sent me a brand new Q3. I promptly sold it, recouped my entire investment and then went shopping for a M rangefinder. Initially I wanted the M11, but after reading about all of its problems (and I wouldn't be surprised if those problems are in the same category as the problem that turned my Q3 into a brick), I opted for a mint M10 and got with it a very inexpensive 3 year warranty against defects and accidents. From what I've read, it seems over the years, certain Leica cams (and perhaps lenses?) were plagued with problems while other Leica gear did not. I believe the M10 (unlike the M9 and M11) is one of those great bullet proof cameras, and I can't imagine ever getting a new camera to replace it.

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[69xchange]

I’ll leave this here. This was my Leica experience.

 

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