Your views on the Leitz Elmar 50mm f2.8 collapsible lens?

[cerber0s]

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As the title says. I’ve only shot three rolls of film with the lens, and only with one film stock, so It’s a bit hard to say what’s what yet. Still I thoght I should ask; are there any better options for the same amount of money?

[Al Brown]

Almost any brand new third party 50mm with similar or even faster speed.

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[TomB_tx]

Depends on your criteria. The 2.8 Elmar is the lens that sold me on Leica in the 1960s. I've been shooting it for the last month on an M10 - still lovely images. May not be the fastest, sharpest, or highest contrast, but I love the results it gives.

[frame-it]

4 hours ago, cerber0s said:

As the title says. I’ve only shot three rolls of film with the lens, and only with one film stock, so It’s a bit hard to say what’s what yet. Still I thoght I should ask; are there any better options for the same amount of money?

 

[spydrxx]

What exactly do you mean by "better"? Are you seeking a particular look, wide open bokeh, strong resolution, high contrast, flaring or not? Do you want to use Leica Thread Mount Lenses or M mount? Are you restricting yourself to Leica produced lenses or willing to consider other brands made for the Leica bodies? Do you know that giving your current lens a CLA (clean, lube, adjust) can probably change bot only its handling characteristics but also enhance some of its optical characteristics? What does your current lens not provide which you seek? What is your budget? Will you be using it primarily on film or digital bodies? Do you intend to have large prints made? What type of subjects are important to you?  Do you shoot primarily in B&W or color? Answers to these questions can help others provide you with guidance.

[cerber0s]

6 hours ago, frame-it said:

 

Thanks! There are lots of beautiful photos in that thread!

[cerber0s]

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7 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

Depends on your criteria. The 2.8 Elmar is the lens that sold me on Leica in the 1960s. I've been shooting it for the last month on an M10 - still lovely images. May not be the fastest, sharpest, or highest contrast, but I love the results it gives.

 

6 hours ago, spydrxx said:

What exactly do you mean by "better"? Are you seeking a particular look, wide open bokeh, strong resolution, high contrast, flaring or not? Do you want to use Leica Thread Mount Lenses or M mount? Are you restricting yourself to Leica produced lenses or willing to consider other brands made for the Leica bodies? Do you know that giving your current lens a CLA (clean, lube, adjust) can probably change bot only its handling characteristics but also enhance some of its optical characteristics? What does your current lens not provide which you seek? What is your budget? Will you be using it primarily on film or digital bodies? Do you intend to have large prints made? What type of subjects are important to you?  Do you shoot primarily in B&W or color? Answers to these questions can help others provide you with guidance.

Sometines I’d like a bit more sharpness, and a bit more contrast. Then again, it’s probably too soon to say before I’ve run some color film through it, and some B&W film with better resolution. 

I think there’s a look to the images I get that fit certain situations and certain films, but not for everything. The lens has already been CLA’d and works great.

I’m not restricting myself to Leica lenses. I’d love one, but they’re too expensive right now. Something around 700-800 euros/dollars would be the top price.

I wouldn’t have any objections against using an adaptor for LTM-lenses. They will be used primarily on my M3, occasionally on digital.

The largest prints I can make from 135-film with my enlarger (without projecting on the floor) is around 40x60cm

[nitroplait]

12 hours ago, cerber0s said:

As the title says. I’ve only shot three rolls of film with the lens, and only with one film stock, so It’s a bit hard to say what’s what yet. Still I thoght I should ask; are there any better options for the same amount of money?

For sharper, contrastier and budget friendly options you only have to look in the current Voigtländer catalogue - almost any option will comply with that - same can be said for most of their discontinued lenses.

The original Elmar 50/2.8 has a vintage look with its own charm (and i love that) - But if it must be Leica, an Elmar-M 50/2.8 (1994->) offers gulps of contrast and sharpness at a reasonable price point (for Leica). I not sure if it can be squeezed in under your budget of €800, but maybe you are lucky.

[spydrxx]

If you would like increased resolution and contrast (film & digital) I'd second most of the current Voigtlanders, and add in the 50mm category a f/2 Zeiss Planar ZM. Used they go for around $5-600 USD and really provide a jump-out-at-you modern image, great build and smooth as the much more expensive Leica Summicron. If you're looking for a 35 I can heartily recommend Voigtlander's 35/1.4 Nokton (version II, not 1), either multicoated or single coated (especially good for B&W). There is a current thread on this model in this forum...most commenters love this lens at a fraction of the Leica price. I just finished a weekend shooting with it at my daughter's participation in a 10k tough mudder, and she is delighted with the photos. One more thought (I'm still experimenting with it) is the tiny LTM 40/2.8 Voigtlander Heliar...I see it as a modern rendition bridge between the 35 and 50mm focal lengths, not a fast lens, and one has to interpolate coverage in finders, but it seems to replicate my field of vision (I started my 35mm camera journey many decades ago with a 42mm lens, so it is a return to early familiarity). Lastly, there are a number of early LTM lenses out there which equal or exceed Leica's offerings from the 1950-60s including Canons and Nikons, very inexpensive these days, and similar to the lens you currently have, with perhaps a little more bokeh. Personally, the lens you currently have is a terrific lens for general use (I have the f/3.5 version).

[RexGig0]

7 hours ago, cerber0s said:

 

Sometines I’d like a bit more sharpness, and a bit more contrast. Then again, it’s probably too soon to say before I’ve run some color film through it, and some B&W film with better resolution. 

I think there’s a look to the images I get that fit certain situations and certain films, but not for everything. The lens has already been CLA’d and works great.

I’m not restricting myself to Leica lenses. I’d love one, but they’re too expensive right now. Something around 700-800 euros/dollars would be the top price.

I wouldn’t have any objections against using an adaptor for LTM-lenses. They will be used primarily on my M3, occasionally on digital.

The largest prints I can make from 135-film with my enlarger (without projecting on the floor) is around 40x60cm

Sharpness? Contrast? 700 to 800 Euros/Dollars? I just paid $799 for a new Cosina-made Voigtlander 50mm APO Lanthar. The official USA distributor, Cameraquest, was having a price promotion. My major motivation was best flare resistance, because I already own Leica 50mm lenses that met my other requirements, but, yes, this is a very sharp lens. (Low-angle sunlight can be very harsh, much of the time, here in Texas.)

I do own an Elmar-M 50mm, the chromed brass version. It is very sharp. I have not done a comparison test-shoot, to judge contrast, but, my eyes tend to favor a decent amount of contrast, and the Elmar f/2.8 does not disappoint, especially if stopped-down a bit.

Edited August 29, 2023 by RexGig0

[Anbaric]

8 hours ago, cerber0s said:

Sometines I’d like a bit more sharpness, and a bit more contrast. Then again, it’s probably too soon to say before I’ve run some color film through it, and some B&W film with better resolution.

Here is what Erwin Puts said about this lens (I assume you have the original version rather than the Elmar-M from the 90s):

'At full aperture the lens has a low overall contrast, lower than that of the Summicron and the Elmar 3.5 version. Coarse detail is reproduced with soft edges and finer detail is blurred in the outer zones (beyond image height of 8mm). The aperture of 1:2.8 does overstretch the design and spherical aberration and flare (due to coma) do lower the contrast. It delivers however an even performance over most of image field, which improved rapidly when stopping down. At 1:4 the performance is very good and better than that of the original Elmar 1:3.5/50mm at 1:4. Overall contrast becomes medium and now we have a very good centre quality, with the outer zones still trailing behind. Compared to the Summicron (I), there is an interesting difference in fingerprint. The Elmar has the edge in the centre of the picture and the Summicron is better in the field. At 1:8 we find very fine imagery (as good as that of the Summicron (II) from 1957). The performance characteristics show the limit of a four-element design with the glass types then available.'

Stopped down, it's probably competitive with any Leica lens of its era, but it's not at its best at larger apertures. If you want better performance in general, but especially wide open, then for your budget the answer is probably 'any modern third party 50mm lens' from Voigtländer, Zeiss, TTArtisan, 7Artisans, etc. (or perhaps the 90s Elmar-M as nitroplait says). But I'd suggest working with what you have for a while, noting the apertures you used to take different shots, before deciding whether to supplement it with anything else. Also check for any haze by shining an LED light through it at various angles - lenses of this vintage may benefit from a professional service and cleaning.

Edited August 29, 2023 by Anbaric

[lct]

The Elmar-M 50/2.8 is a modern triplet that has not the same character as double Gauss lenses it is often compared to. Comparing an Elmar to a Summicron is like comparing a Tessar to a Planar if you see what i mean. It is hard to find words to explain this. Better try those lenses in person if you can. Couple of snaps with Elmar-M 50/2.8 on M240 below.

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Edited August 30, 2023 by lct

[ocean2059]

1 hour ago, lct said:

The Elmar-M 50/2.8 is a modern triplet that has not the same character as double Gauss lenses it is often compared to. Comparing an Elmar to a Summicron is like comparing a Tessar to a Planar if you see what i mean. It is hard to find words to explain this. Better try those lenses in person if you can. Couple of snaps with Elmar-M 50/2.8 on M240 below.

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Beautiful photos showing the strength and attributes of the Elmar-M 50 in good lighting conditions!

[lct]

The Elmar is no slough in low light either. On M240 again.

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[lct]

Shines also on crop cameras. On M8.2 here.

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[lct]

Finally on digital CL with Leica Macro adapter v2.

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[pippy]

On 8/28/2023 at 9:53 PM, cerber0s said:

As the title says....Still I thought I should ask; are there any better options for the same amount of money?

As the title says "Leitz" I trust that we can surmise that we are talking about the c. 1957-1974 version as opposed to the much modified 1994 - 2007 're-imagining' of the same concept.

In the UK it is possible (having just checked) to pick up a Leitz 50mm f2.8 Elmar in M mount and in very good optical condition for around £225 / $280. IMO there are very few new (or older) lenses which offer a 'better' performance (make up your own parameters / definitions) for that asking price.

Going in to any more detail, of course, is going to become VERY complicated.

Philip.

Edited August 30, 2023 by pippy

[Anbaric]

35 minutes ago, pippy said:

In the UK it is possible (having just checked) to pick up a Leitz 50mm f2.8 Elmar in M mount and in very good optical condition for around £225 / $280. IMO there are very few new (or older) lenses which offer a 'better' performance (make up your own parameters / definitions) for that asking price.

The OP has suggested they can go up to 7-800 Euros, but if the price of the Elmar were the hard limit, the Summitar is an interesting alternative with a surprisingly modern look if you avoid situations that bring out that swirly bokeh, though I doubt it's sharper than the Elmar at middle apertures. Maybe a vintage Japanese LTM lens? Of course you could buy a cheap SLR with a modern lens for less, but that would be cheating!

[lct]

2 hours ago, pippy said:

As the title says "Leitz" I trust that we can surmise that we are talking about the c. 1957-1974 version as opposed to the much modified 1994 - 2007 're-imagining' of the same concept.

Ah yes i missed this sorry. I have kept my Elmar 50/2.8 from the sixties but it has significantly less contrast than the Elmar-M and its barrel turns when focusing. An affordable alternative could be the Skopar 50/2.5 in LTM mount which has more contrast than the Elmar with less character than  the Elmar-M. It is also outperformed by the Summarit-M 50/2.5 but it is less expensive than the latter. It is a lens i use on digital CL mainly, due to its tiny size. Looks solid as a tank though. Just a couple of snaps below to show how it renders.

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Edited August 31, 2023 by lct

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[pippy]

10 hours ago, Anbaric said:

The OP has suggested they can go up to 7-800 Euros, but if the price of the Elmar were the hard limit, the Summitar is an interesting alternative with a surprisingly modern look......Maybe a vintage Japanese LTM lens?......

My brother has the 1939 Summitar which had been our father's and he has used it very successfully on his M9-P. I'd rather like to have a go with it myself!

As far as Japanese LTM lenses are concerned there is a huge choice but I'm not sufficiently au fait with any apart from an early '50s 'Serenar-style' 50mm f2. It is a very nice lens and has more contrast than my 1961 example of the f2.8 Elmar but I suspect that the Elamr would benefit from a CLA. The only thing I dislike about the Canon is that it has a noticeable amount of barrel-distortion. I'd guess that there is a good chance that this trait might have been addressed by Canon in their later f2 / f1.8 / f1.4 50mm lenses. Certainly Jaap seems to be very happy with his much later Canon 50mm f1.4 (IIRC) version.

Philip.

Edited August 31, 2023 by pippy