Survey: Leica Support for Raw Converter Apps

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Leica Camera asked us to ask you, as customers, what applications you use to convert and edit raw data files.

Background of the question: Leica would like to support software manufacturers whose applications are actually used by Leica customers.

Two other questions ask whether Leica should support certain programs better and how you rate the raw support of Leica cameras compared to other providers.

» Take the Survey Leica Support for Raw Converter

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I use Lightroom to convert and process my Leica DNG. Perfect to me. 

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[ahl]

I use Adobe Raw and even the CS6 version will process the latest SL2 files- However DXO took a very long time to issue a module that could cope with the latest files. They informed me that the DNG format is particular to every different brand of cameras and that it is not truly universal, which is what I assumed it was. Now they have caught up after a long delay and there is no further problem processing my files.

 

[Anbaric]

Spot the odd one out:

Canon - Digital Photo Professional
Nikon - NX Studio, Capture One Express for Nikon
Sony - Imaging Edge Desktop, Capture One Express for Sony
Pentax - Silkypix Developer Studio 3.0 for Pentax
Olympus - OM Workspace
Fuji - Raw File Converter EX 3.0 powered by Silkypix, Capture One Express for Fuji, Fujifilm X Raw Studio
Panasonic - Silkypix Developer Studio SE for Panasonic
Sigma - Photo Pro
Hasselblad - Phocus
Leica -

Every other major manufacturer provides a regularly updated reference raw converter free of charge. Some have also worked with Capture One to provide a free Express version. Nowadays, most have pretty sophisticated raw adjustments (Nikon's latest software is particularly good). These packages don't have to be created from scratch - several are based on Silkypix, while each manufacturer-specific Capture One Express flavour just uses the standard installer with a licence that enables a more limited but still decent selection of features.

It's not just that these packages are free, they also have manufacturer-approved camera profiles, which generally means you can easily get output from raw files very close to in-camera jpegs if you choose, or of course go to town and use the full flexibility of raw development. And, because they are regularly updated, you don't have to pay the Adobe tax or the high asking price of Capture One's latest annual version every time you need support for a new camera, or wait for the software company to get around to supporting your model.

So my suggestion to Leica would be to have a chat with Capture One (who they already collaborate with) or Silkypix and make a deal to provide an approved manufacturer-specific raw converter as a free download just like everyone else does. Surely that's not too much to ask for when you buy a £7,800 camera?

[ramarren]

Playing devil's advocate here...

I personally have never once, in 20 something years of buying and using digital cameras, used the manufacturers' provided image processing solution with two exceptions: I've used Hasselblad' Phocus so as to get the lens profiles applied for my X-system lenses, and I've used Olympus' software to install firmware updates (because you HAVE to...). I think it's a sensible and smart thing for Leica to leverage other vendors' expertise in writing, developing, testing, and distributing image processing software rather than incurring the expense (and consequent addition to their camera products' prices) of doing it themselves.

And, after all, what purchaser of a £7,800 camera does not already have an image processing system that they know, use, and like? Does every new buyer of a ultra high end camera system immediately go download that manufacturer's latest image processing system and switch to using that rather than using the one that contains all their other work?  

G

[wlewisiii]

I have an M 240. Used Capture One till they went subscription. I refuse to use that model. I changed to ART and found it superior as well as free.

Edited August 15, 2023 by wlewisiii

[Anbaric]

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50 minutes ago, ramarren said:

Playing devil's advocate here...

I personally have never once, in 20 something years of buying and using digital cameras, used the manufacturers' provided image processing solution with two exceptions: I've used Hasselblad' Phocus so as to get the lens profiles applied for my X-system lenses, and I've used Olympus' software to install firmware updates (because you HAVE to...). I think it's a sensible and smart thing for Leica to leverage other vendors' expertise in writing, developing, testing, and distributing image processing software rather than incurring the expense (and consequent addition to their camera products' prices) of doing it themselves.

And, after all, what purchaser of a £7,800 camera does not already have an image processing system that they know, use, and like? Does every new buyer of a ultra high end camera system immediately go download that manufacturer's latest image processing system and switch to using that rather than using the one that contains all their other work?  

G

My take on that would be - Leica can indeed use other vendors' expertise by shipping Capture One Express for Leica or a lightly customised version of Silkypix. For Capture One at least, nearly all the work has already been done, since Leica have worked with C1 on their camera profiles. All C1 would have to do would be the trivial work required to create another Express version with a licence that enables raw processing only for Leica files, with the same features as the Sony, Nikon and Fuji versions of C1 Express. That would probably take them an afternoon. C1 also handles the distribution and licensing of the various flavours of C1 Express via their website, to Leica doesn't have to take this on, and it's an opportunity for C1 to upsell Leica users on the full package.

As for the expense, Canon (for example) provides DPP for cameras as cheap as £350, and as expensive as £5000, so I doubt it's adding significantly to the cost of their budget models, or is entirely beneath the notice of their high-end users. As for Leica, I would be very surprised if the cost of the software to them would be more than a small fraction of the cost of the leather neck straps they bundle with their cameras these days, though users will often prefer something else (the source of endless threads on this forum!). And really it's not asking a great deal - every other manufacturer I can think of does this. It's expected, like hosting firmware downloads or PDFs of the manuals on the website.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Anbaric

[Kwesi]

21 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

My take on that would be - Leica can indeed use other vendors' expertise by shipping Capture One Express for Leica or a lightly customised version of Silkypix. For Capture One at least, nearly all the work has already been done, since Leica have worked with C1 on their camera profiles. All C1 would have to do would be the trivial work required to create another licence that enables raw processing only for Leica files, with the same features as the Sony, Nikon and Fuji versions of C1 Express. That would probably take them an afternoon. C1 also handles the distribution and licensing of the various flavours of C1 Express via their website, to Leica doesn't have to take this on, and it's an opportunity for C1 to upsell Leica users on the full package.

As for the expense, Canon (for example) provides DPP for cameras as cheap as £350, and as expensive as £5000, so I doubt it's adding significantly to the cost of their budget models, or is entirely beneath the notice of their high-end users. As for Leica, I would be very surprised if the cost of the software to them would be more than a small fraction of the cost of the leather neck straps they bundle with their cameras these days, though users will often prefer something else (the source of endless threads on this forum!). And really it's not asking a great deal - every other manufacturer I can think of does this. It's expected, like hosting firmware downloads or PDFs of the manuals on the website.

Most of us want a fully functioning combined high end Raw file converter and Digital Asset Management software that is continually updated as the technology improves.

We really don't mind paying for it as long as it gets the job done and continues to challenge us to be even better at our craft.

 

[SrMi]

37 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

My take on that would be - Leica can indeed use other vendors' expertise by shipping Capture One Express for Leica or a lightly customised version of Silkypix. For Capture One at least, nearly all the work has already been done, since Leica have worked with C1 on their camera profiles. All C1 would have to do would be the trivial work required to create another Express version with a licence that enables raw processing only for Leica files, with the same features as the Sony, Nikon and Fuji versions of C1 Express. That would probably take them an afternoon. C1 also handles the distribution and licensing of the various flavours of C1 Express via their website, to Leica doesn't have to take this on, and it's an opportunity for C1 to upsell Leica users on the full package.

As for the expense, Canon (for example) provides DPP for cameras as cheap as £350, and as expensive as £5000, so I doubt it's adding significantly to the cost of their budget models, or is entirely beneath the notice of their high-end users. As for Leica, I would be very surprised if the cost of the software to them would be more than a small fraction of the cost of the leather neck straps they bundle with their cameras these days, though users will often prefer something else (the source of endless threads on this forum!). And really it's not asking a great deal - every other manufacturer I can think of does this. It's expected, like hosting firmware downloads or PDFs of the manuals on the website.

C1 has never fully supported Leica cameras. Missing features include Leica Perspective Control and cropping instructions. The collaboration between Adobe and Leica seems much closer.

[Anbaric]

32 minutes ago, SrMi said:

C1 has never fully supported Leica cameras. Missing features include Leica Perspective Control and cropping instructions. The collaboration between Adobe and Leica seems much closer.

To me those would be rather peripheral things, less important than: 'The collaboration between Leica Camera AG and Capture One has resulted in profiles that are precisely calibrated to each camera. This ensures optimal image quality, enabling Capture One Pro 21 to utilise the respective Leica camera’s full potential.' Stick those profiles in Capture One Express and you'd have a rather useful download, a benchmark converter with quite a lot of control. And they'd be doing no more than Sony, Nikon and Fuji have already done as well as providing their own-branded software.

[Anbaric]

57 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Most of us want a fully functioning combined high end Raw file converter and Digital Asset Management software that is continually updated as the technology improves.

We really don't mind paying for it as long as it gets the job done and continues to challenge us to be even better at our craft.

We probably all imagine we speak for everyone else, but I think there'd be a niche for this, and a lot of people would download it if it were available. Leica have even bundled raw software in the past, including free copies of Capture One LE (a precursor of Capture One Express) in the M8 era (which was discussed here a lot back in the day, so someone must have been using it). Every other camera company sees fit to provide something similar, though all of them also have Serious Users who would prefer to use something more sophisticated.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Anbaric

[Kwesi]

6 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

We probably all imagine we speak for everyone else, but I think there'd be a niche for this, and a lot of people would download it if it were available. Leica have even bundled raw software in the past, including free copies of Capture One LE (a precursor of Capture One Express) in the M8 era (which was discussed here a lot back in the day, so someone must have been using it). Every other camera company sees fit to provide something similar, though all of them also have Serious Users who would prefer to use something more sophisticated.

Actually I said "most of us" BUT let's not hijack the OP's thread. 

I think the point of this survey is Leica's desire to better support existing software and also a desire on their part to make sure they are't ignoring a popular piece of image editing software. I applaud them for the effort.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Kwesi

[LocalHero1953]

Even if Leica supplied their own raw converter I would still want Lightroom for managing all my images, batch editing, connecting to Topaz, cloud etc, so I am quite happy for Leica to produce files that are readable by ACR - then I don't have to learn another s/w interface.

I got into Lightroom when I bought the M9 and it came with a free ('perpetual' - hah!) version of Lightroom 3. I'd rather they did something similar again.

[Anbaric]

1 minute ago, Kwesi said:

Actually I said "most of us"

I wonder. How many people just shoot jpeg?

[Kwesi]

1 minute ago, Anbaric said:

I wonder. How many people just shoot jpeg?

Why would you need a raw converter if you just shoot jpegs?

[Anbaric]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Even if Leica supplied their own raw converter I would still want Lightroom for managing all my images, batch editing, connecting to Topaz, cloud etc, so I am quite happy for Leica to produce files that are readable by ACR - then I don't have to learn another s/w interface.

I got into Lightroom when I bought the M9 and it came with a free ('perpetual' - hah!) version of Lightroom 3. I'd rather they did something similar again.

Of course it wouldn't have to be C1 - that just seems like one of the easiest options, with a precedent from other manufacturers, a history of bundling a version with another Leica product, and an existing collaboration. I don't see Adobe ever releasing a perpetual version of LR again, though. The most you can imagine is a few months of free CC to get the user hooked.

[Anbaric]

6 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Why would you need a raw converter if you just shoot jpegs?

Well, exactly. What proportion of Leica users bother with any of this stuff, is it 'most' of them? But that's just splitting hairs. I just think if Leica made a basic converter available, especially from a big name like C1, a lot of people would try it, just as they did in the M8 days. And just as users of every other system do, or the manufacturers wouldn't bother.

Edited August 15, 2023 by Anbaric

[LocalHero1953]

10 minutes ago, Anbaric said:

Of course it wouldn't have to be C1 - that just seems like one of the easiest options, with a precedent from other manufacturers, a history of bundling a version with another Leica product, and an existing collaboration. I don't see Adobe ever releasing a perpetual version of LR again, though. The most you can imagine is a few months of free CC to get the user hooked.

Oh, I agree (no perpetual Lightroom) - I was just pointing out that Leica had been down the road of supplying s/w before.

Personally I can't see a benefit in a new raw converter. I do far more work on and with my images than converting from raw. The only thing I did when I had an OMD EM-5 was use their proprietary s/w to convert the files to DNG to import into Lightroom. Leica made quite a point with the M8 and M9 that their files were industry standard - they didn't have another three letter suffix to confuse you. It was a plus for Sigma when I bought the fp that I didn't need another piece of s/w to use their files.

Edited August 15, 2023 by LocalHero1953

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Anbaric said:

To me those would be rather peripheral things, less important than: 'The collaboration between Leica Camera AG and Capture One has resulted in profiles that are precisely calibrated to each camera. This ensures optimal image quality, enabling Capture One Pro 21 to utilise the respective Leica camera’s full potential.' Stick those profiles in Capture One Express and you'd have a rather useful download, a benchmark converter with quite a lot of control. And they'd be doing no more than Sony, Nikon and Fuji have already done as well as providing their own-branded software.

You suggested shipping Leica customized Capture One Express with Leica cameras. What we individually prioritize is irrelevant. Most important is that the software supports all camera features, not only a subset.

Of course, proper support of available lenses is important.

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[Olaf_ZG]

Next to raw processors, to me it is important that photo mechanic can read the files, as this is my main culling program. With the original mm this caused problems on the raw’s