PDAF likely to replace DFD-CDAF on SL3

[SrMi]

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17 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

Thanks for the additional info.

I’m no expert in AF know how but based on what I’ve read and observe, either the capability improvements on CDAF over moving subjects tracking has hit a roadblock or the processing power required is enormous to progress. Plus the pressure from user feedback to replace DFD/CDAF is driving Panasonic’s decision to switch over to PDAF. The problems of banding & striping from PDAF looks fixable technically. I personally think Panasonic’s aim is to provide an AF system on their camera that is at least on par with Nikon, Canon & Sony moving forward if it wants to stay in business.

It has not yet been confirmed that Panasonic will switch to PDAF. DJI and Panasonic have been working on LiDAR focus technology, and some speculate that S5II will use it. Of course, the third possibility is DFD.

[Chaemono]

https://www.l-rumors.com/panasonic-and-dji-are-jointly-testing-a-new-lidar-based-focusing-method/

https://photorumors.com/2022/12/26/first-panasonic-lumix-s5-mark-ii-camera-leak/

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Chaemono]

LIDAR won’t work in fog or heavy snow, though. 😂

[frame-it]

11 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

LIDAR won’t work in fog or heavy snow, though. 😂

and probably much slower than DFD, its a LOT of data to process

[Chaemono]

vor 30 Minuten schrieb frame-it:

and probably much slower than DFD, its a LOT of data to process

For video LiDAR AF looks pretty fast and accurate 

 

 

[frame-it]

5 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

For video LiDAR AF looks pretty fast and accurate 

 

 

yes but needs extra hardware to connect to the camera right? unless the SL3 and S4 are the in same big body but with different sensor and mounts

 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

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If we do get PDAF let's hope all the lenses like it. You can see what is happening with some of the XCD lenses. Are all the SL lenses PDAF ready?

Gordon

[Simone_DF]

https://digicame-info.com/2022/12/lumix-dc-s5m2-dc-s5m2xlumix-s-.html

According to Digicame-info - which is quite accurate - Panasonic is about to launch two different S5II models.

A 14-28mm F4-5.6 macro will also be announced. 

I just got a copy of the 14-28 2.8 from Sigma a couple of days ago, I wonder how does this new lens compare!

[Simone_DF]

29 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

If we do get PDAF let's hope all the lenses like it. You can see what is happening with some of the XCD lenses. Are all the SL lenses PDAF ready?

At a minimum, the Sigmas should be PDAF ready, since they ship the same lenses for Sony.

[sillbeers15]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

If we do get PDAF let's hope all the lenses like it. You can see what is happening with some of the XCD lenses. Are all the SL lenses PDAF ready?

Gordon

I am not aware that PDAF require specific lens design for it to work?

Rather it is DFD that require specific lens contrast data to be stored in camera’s processor for it to work. This is why only specified AF lenses can work on Leica & Panasonic body with AF.

[LBJ2]

The new Panasonic AW-UE160 4K PTZ Camera

"Phase Detection Autofocus (PDAF)"

The AW-UE160 is equipped with a new AF system that combines phase detection AF (phase detection) with contrast AF (contrast detection). The PTZ camera's fast focusing speed and high focusing accuracy enable it to track subjects and capture in-focus images, whether it is continuously focusing on a moving subject or switching focus on multiple subjects.

https://na.panasonic.com/us/audio-video-solutions/broadcast-cinema-pro-video/professional-ptz-cameras/aw-ue160-4k-ptz-camera

[Chaemono]

That gives it away.

[frame-it]

22 minutes ago, LBJ2 said:

The new Panasonic AW-UE160 4K PTZ Camera

"Phase Detection Autofocus (PDAF)"

The AW-UE160 is equipped with a new AF system that combines phase detection AF (phase detection) with contrast AF (contrast detection). The PTZ camera's fast focusing speed and high focusing accuracy enable it to track subjects and capture in-focus images, whether it is continuously focusing on a moving subject or switching focus on multiple subjects.

https://na.panasonic.com/us/audio-video-solutions/broadcast-cinema-pro-video/professional-ptz-cameras/aw-ue160-4k-ptz-camera

interesting

 

https://na.panasonic.com/us/PTZ-autotracking

[Chaemono]

It requires the processing power of a GPU architecture and I doubt Panasonic‘s Venus engine is a GPU even though AMD makes a GPU called Venus https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-venus.g135 
 

 

 

[sillbeers15]

7 hours ago, Chaemono said:

It requires the processing power of a GPU architecture and I doubt Panasonic‘s Venus engine is a GPU even though AMD makes a GPU called Venus https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/amd-venus.g135 
 

 

 

You have touched on a key element to the success and failure of a AF system. I am very sure the current SL2 processor is underpowered even during product launch. A tell tale sign is the slow continuous frame rate that the SL2 can support continuous autofocus.

When the Nikon Z9 was launched, their marketing team was proud to mention a unique and fast processor compared to the rest of the Z series. Sony has dedicated processor chip for AI,…what other usage than recognition AF?

Let’s just hope that Panasonic don’t screw up again this time on AF of their S series cameras…..cause Leica can only passively adopt what Panasonic has developed as it does not have the know how nor the financial muscle to develop it’s own AF.

I would not have started this topic of discussion if not tipped off from an insider on the development and use of PDAF on next gen SL. Let’s hope nothing changes along the way.

[SrMi]

Leaked specs?

https://photorumors.com/2022/12/28/leaked-panasonic-s5-mark-ii-s5-mark-ii-x-lumix-s-14-28mm-f-4-5-6-macro-lens-specifications/

[sillbeers15]

7 hours ago, SrMi said:

Leaked specs?

https://photorumors.com/2022/12/28/leaked-panasonic-s5-mark-ii-s5-mark-ii-x-lumix-s-14-28mm-f-4-5-6-macro-lens-specifications/

I would expect Panasonic to make announcements and publish specs come January to February 2023 around CES & CP show time/period. Actual availability of camera should be about Q3 2023. Extending the timeline into 2024 will be for Q3 then followed by SL3.

This matches the product life cycle of 4 years for SL body as I remember getting my SL2 in November 2019.

Edited December 29, 2022 by sillbeers15

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, sillbeers15 said:

I would expect Panasonic to make announcements and publish specs come January to February 2023 around CES & CP show time/period. Actual availability of camera should be about Q3 2023. Extending the timeline into 2024 will be for Q3 then followed by SL3.

This matches the product life cycle of 4 years for SL body as I remember getting my SL2 in November 2019.

What has the launch of a Panasonic got to do with the timeline for Leica's Q3 or SL3?

[Stuart Richardson]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:10 PM, Chaemono said:

For mirrorless cameras some pixels of the image sensor are used for PDAF. See here for the difference to CDAF https://technicles.com/laser-autofocus-pdaf-cdaf-dual-pixel-af-better/

Also, there seems to be trade-off between PDAF banding and PDAF striping. Manufacturers try to fix both with firmware but apparently it’s hard to do. https://blog.kasson.com/gfx-100/on-sensor-pdaf-misconceptions/

I’d love to know if the X2D files show PDAF banding or striping. The S3 doesn’t for obvious reasons. 

The S3 most certainly does have banding in pushed shadows and high ISO. It has so much of it in fact, that it is one of the reasons I am trying to sell it. The SL2 by comparison has much less. I am not sure if it is from the phase detect sensors (I believe the S3 has phase detect, as it is an SLR, but it might be on a separate chip or done with a different technology, I do not know).

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

and it has PDAF..

 

有効画素数2420万画素フルサイズCMOSセンサー、ARコーティング
ダストリダクションはセンサーシフト式
動画は6K30p 4:2:0 10-bit、C4K 60p 4:2:2 10-bit 、フルHD 120fps 4:2:0 10-bit、フルHD60fps 4:2:2 10-bit
368万ドット有機EL EVF、倍率0.78倍、アイポイント21mm、リフレッシュレート120fps/60fps
3型184万ドット フリーアングルモニタ、タッチパネル、アスペクト比3:2

AF方式 位相差AF/コントラストAF、DFD、EV -6 - 18、AFアシストライト = AF method phase difference AF/contrast AF, DFD, EV -6 - 18, AF assist light

1728ゾーンマルチパターン測光、測光範囲EV0-18
ISO範囲100-51200（拡張で50-204800）
デュアルネイティブISO、ノーマルISO100と640、V-log640と4000、HLG400と2500
5軸手ブレ補正、5段分の効果（デュアルI.S. 2で6.5段分の効果）
シャッターは1/8000-60秒（メカ）、1/2000-60秒（電子先幕）、1/8000-60秒（電子）
シンクロは1/250秒
連写（メカシャッター）はAFS/MFで9コマ/秒、AFCで7コマ秒
連写（電子シャッター）はAFS/AFC/MFで最高30コマ/秒
バッファはRAW+JPEGで200枚以上、RAWで200枚以上、JPEGで300枚以上
USB Type-C端子（USB3.2 Gen2）
HDMI Type-A
デュアルSDカードスロット
ファン オート/オート2/高速/ノーマル/スロー/OFF
Wi-Fi、Bluetooth ｖ5.0
バッテリーライフは370枚
防塵防滴
大きさ134x102x90mm
重さ740g（バッテリー、SDメモリカード込み）、657g（ボディのみ）

 

24.2 million effective pixels full-size CMOS sensor, AR coating Sensor shift type dust reduction Video is 6K30p 4:2:0 10-bit, C4K 60p 4:2:2 10-bit, Full HD 120fps 4:2:0 10-bit, Full HD60fps 4:2:2 10-bit 3.68 million dots organic EL EVF, magnification 0.78x, eyepoint 21mm, refresh rate 120fps/60fps 3 inch 1.84 million dots free angle monitor, touch panel, aspect ratio 3:2

AF method phase difference AF/contrast AF, DFD, EV -6 - 18, AF assist light

 

EV -6 - 18, AF assist light 1728-zone multi-pattern metering, metering range EV0-18 ISO range 100-51200 (extended 50-204800) Dual native ISO, normal ISO100 and 640, V-log640 and 4000, HLG400 and 2500 5-axis image stabilization, 5 steps effect (6.5 steps effect with dual I.S. 2) Shutter 1/8000-60 seconds (mechanical), 1/2000-60 seconds (electronic first curtain), 1/8000-60 seconds (electronic) Synchro is 1/250 second Continuous shooting (mechanical shutter) is AFS/MF at 9 fps, AFC at 7 fps Continuous shooting (electronic shutter) up to 30 fps in AFS/AFC/MF Buffer: 200+ RAW+JPEG, 200+ RAW, 300+ JPEG USB Type-C terminal (USB3.2 Gen2) HDMI Type-A Dual SD card slots Fan Auto/Auto2/High Speed/Normal/Slow/OFF Wi-Fi, Bluetooth v5.0 Battery life is 370 shots Dust and splash proof Size 134x102x90mm Weight 740g (including battery and SD memory card), 657g (body only)

Edited December 29, 2022 by frame-it