Leica M11-D and some thoughts

[algrove]

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13 hours ago, fenykepesz said:

oops, i see, now it's already LEV, a new term !  though in the context of M cameras, that smells a bit of an oxymoron, doesn't-it ?

moreover, regarding the OVF frame lines, what will happen to them in an LEV ?  i love those approximate (in)accurate lines !

Who cares about a name. Q? That has been accepted. I am talking about a complete replacement of the rangefinder with a Viso2 like EVF. Live view all the time. Call it whatever you want, but it is really no longer an M.

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[jaapv]

I would remind members not to start multiple threads on the same subject. The moderators will merge the threads which will make them less coherent. 

[FranciscoChung]

On 5/22/2023 at 5:50 PM, FranciscoChung said:

M3-W... that I mentioned above, Classic M3 with digital back & mechanical winder that actually advances the shutter.

 

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Small round screen on the right of shutter release to serve multiple functions.

I don't think Leica sees value in developing actual working shutter advance... maybe they find it gimicky and just having it as a thumb rest in M10-D is where draw the line. 

[DBounce]

I would love to see a stacked sensor in an M11 series body.

[charlesphoto99]

On 6/4/2023 at 3:27 AM, lucerne said:

to you and a few others.......maybe?

so what?

Not me.    I take photographs.  
 

 

That's what is known as 'humor'  - nobody really thinks of screens as 'bourgeois.'   

[FranciscoChung]

On 5/22/2023 at 5:47 PM, FranciscoChung said:

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Ok, next Leica M camera should be M11-D !! Hope we get some News or even rumors soon. Am I expecting too much to wish for the actual working winder like fans wanted for years?

[setuporg]

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The camera that motivated me to get into Leica was the Edition 60, which I now have and cherish.  It makes perfect sense.  No wifi, no cheating.

With M11P, you have status icons:

• geotagging
• wifi/bluetooth
• location
• content credentials

Geotagging is very useful to check on screen.  So it makes much less sense to get rid of a screen on an M11 or later.  The more gadgetry we get stuffed inside, the more we need to monitor it onscreen.  Sure you can do it on a smartphone, but it all defeats the purpose.  That's why M10-D makes no sense to me -- M-D and Edition 60 beat it in purity, the sensor is inferior to M10R/M11.  Any M11D will be a mixed bag and not a pure screenless camera.

[evikne]

2 hours ago, FranciscoChung said:

Ok, next Leica M camera should be M11-D !! Hope we get some News or even rumors soon. Am I expecting too much to wish for the actual working winder like fans wanted for years?

I would be ecstatic if rumors of an M11-D surfaced. But I'd keep the ISO settings where they are now (and exposure compensation can stay on the back, because I never use it anyway). The on/off switch could perhaps be moved to a new location.

[SNJ Ops]

I wouldn’t ever but an M11-D but I certainly understand the desire for one since recently started using my M10 a lot less. Aside from saving battery life it makes for an even better shooting experience somehow. I may feel differently if I had an M11 with its USB-C charging though.

[fenykepesz]

Am 12.11.2023 um 23:29 schrieb setuporg:

Any M11D will be a mixed bag and not a pure screenless camera.

what makes you think of a 'mixed bag', @setuporg ?  do you mean with that additional features, in hardware or software ?  or, quelle horreur, even additional buttons wheels and alike ?  i guess BSI and IBIS is not in your bag for a new M11-D, it's too early for that, right ?  i will be happy as long as the new camera body just looks more or less like my current M10-D.  and as long as they keep its fake winder in place !!!

[FranciscoChung]

The mechanical winder on the Leica M11-D does NOT necessarily have to advance the shutter like the Epson R-D1. Leica could make the shutter button unusable until the dummy winder is cranked. Oh and add some resistance to make it feel real.

[fenykepesz]

vor 21 Minuten schrieb FranciscoChung:

The mechanical winder on the Leica M11-D does NOT necessarily have to advance the shutter like the Epson R-D1. Leica could make the shutter button unusable until the dummy winder is cranked. Oh and add some resistance to make it feel real.

you know, @FranciscoChung, it would, also for me, be a pleasant surprise to find all those winder functionalities you mentioned in the past and today, but i think, there is a production reality, where sidetracking from the common M11 body may just not be practical as complex to implement and too costy for Leica. 

however, i believe, like in the M10-D, it shouldn't be that difficult to add that fake winder to the release button, *together* with the power switch as so many times requested.  for me, the main purpose of the fake winder is an ergonomic one, like i had tried to justify it here :  there is an anatomical advantage to hold an M-body in a triangular space with the third point located on the tip of the fake winder's extended arm, far out of the plane of the camera back, just where my right thumb awaits it...

[grahamc]

I don’t think the idea is to completely replicate a film camera.  More so just to give a screenless digital experience.    As a long time 10-D User I certainly wouldn’t like having to crank the winder like my dim M.   I enjoy certain “digitalisms” of the digital M when I’m using it and the ability to fire off multiple shots quicker is one of them.  Otherwise why not also place a code in the SD card that says we can’t see the images for minimum 12 hours after shooting, if we really want to replicate the film experience let’s include some waiting time! 
 

any 11-D will presumably have the non removable baseplate so any move to further mimick a film camera on the top side (as with “shutter-cocking” advance lever) would contrast terribly with a bottom that includes a USB port and exposed battery 

out of the 2 sensors side by side I found the 10 to me significantly more film like, containing mire contrast and richness out of camera than the larger / flatter 11 sensor. As a hybrid shooter this is important for my use case and consistency across images 

all of this is a shame because I’d love to have the “latest and greatest” but I can’t see myself buying an 11 for my uses unless sensor changes are made - perhaps they will be as in SL2S smaller 24MP sensor  that’d be amazing and I may be a buyer at that point , but only if I can take off the baseplate  

long live the 10-D !

Edited November 28, 2023 by grahamc

[jakontil]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

I don’t think the idea is to completely replicate a film camera.  More so just to give a screenless digital experience.    As a long time 10-D User I certainly wouldn’t like having to crank the winder like my dim M.   I enjoy certain “digitalisms” of the digital M when I’m using it and the ability to fire off multiple shots quicker is one of them.  Otherwise why not also place a code in the SD card that says we can’t see the images for minimum 12 hours after shooting, if we really want to replicate the film experience let’s include some waiting time! 
 

any 11-D will presumably have the non removable baseplate so any move to further mimick a film camera on the top side (as with “shutter-cocking” advance lever) would contrast terribly with a bottom that includes a USB port and exposed battery 

out of the 2 sensors side by side I found the 10 to me significantly more film like, containing mire contrast and richness out of camera than the larger / flatter 11 sensor. As a hybrid shooter this is important for my use case and consistency across images 

all of this is a shame because I’d love to have the “latest and greatest” but I can’t see myself buying an 11 for my uses unless sensor changes are made - perhaps they will be as in SL2S smaller 24MP sensor  that’d be amazing and I may be a buyer at that point , but only if I can take off the baseplate  

long live the 10-D !

As long as it’s an M10D with M11 battery life, take my moneyyyyyy 

[setuporg]

4 hours ago, grahamc said:

I don’t think the idea is to completely replicate a film camera.  More so just to give a screenless digital experience.    As a long time 10-D User I certainly wouldn’t like having to crank the winder like my dim M.   I enjoy certain “digitalisms” of the digital M when I’m using it and the ability to fire off multiple shots quicker is one of them.  Otherwise why not also place a code in the SD card that says we can’t see the images for minimum 12 hours after shooting, if we really want to replicate the film experience let’s include some waiting time! 
 

any 11-D will presumably have the non removable baseplate so any move to further mimick a film camera on the top side (as with “shutter-cocking” advance lever) would contrast terribly with a bottom that includes a USB port and exposed battery 

out of the 2 sensors side by side I found the 10 to me significantly more film like, containing mire contrast and richness out of camera than the larger / flatter 11 sensor. As a hybrid shooter this is important for my use case and consistency across images 

all of this is a shame because I’d love to have the “latest and greatest” but I can’t see myself buying an 11 for my uses unless sensor changes are made - perhaps they will be as in SL2S smaller 24MP sensor  that’d be amazing and I may be a buyer at that point , but only if I can take off the baseplate  

long live the 10-D !

All of this points in the direction of Edition 60 and M-D as even better, more pure, more film-like cameras.  The baseplate.  The lack of wifi, even more film-like sensor with fine grain at night, excellent battery life exceeding that of M11, a very satisfying clunk shutter sound inside the stainless steel castle of the 60, total lack of care for the Bluetooth protocol version, etc.:) 

[Budfox]

The Edition 60 was a great design concept, but the lack of strap lugs made it impractical to use.

The M-D Typ-262 added just a few more practical features - exposure compensation, shutter timer, and strap lugs. It was the best implementation of the concept in my view.

The M10-D was too clever, trying to have your cake and eat it. I think the concept ended on that model.

I can't see Leica bothering with an M11-D. If you want screenless, they still make film cameras.

[grahamc]

6 hours ago, setuporg said:

All of this points in the direction of Edition 60 and M-D as even better, more pure, more film-like cameras.  The baseplate.  The lack of wifi, even more film-like sensor with fine grain at night, excellent battery life exceeding that of M11, a very satisfying clunk shutter sound inside the stainless steel castle of the 60, total lack of care for the Bluetooth protocol version, etc.:) 

I had an MD briefly but much prefer the slimmer profile of the M10 variant.  As well as the opportunity to tether or review images if (rarely) needed.  All beautiful cameras, of course !

[IkarusJohn]

Having owned the M Edition 60, wifi was essential to my purchase of the M10-D.  To be able to use the camera as intended (no screen, no settings - just focus, check exposure and shoot) is fantastic, but limiting.

To have the options (not apparent from the camera but for the wifi switch) to add the EVF for accurate framing, checking exposure and accurate focusing of longer lenses and to change some settings, remotely fire the shutter and download images on the run, made the M10-D camera perfect for me.  The thumb rest was an added bonus.

But, I agree that fewer buttons on the M10-D would have been nice.  I also doubt that Leica will release an M11-D - it would seem the last one was just too painful and probably not very profitable.

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[setuporg]

37 minutes ago, Budfox said:

The Edition 60 was a great design concept, but the lack of strap lugs made it impractical to use.

I got a custom Luigi case for it which is super convenient.  But recently I found you can just use a wrist strap.  Exactly because of the lack of lugs it is stunning in hand.