L-system - Why poor sales?

[Timkr]

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I’ve been using leica gear for about 20 years and it’s been a constant source of disappointment and satisfaction for me.  The disappointment has to do with the sporadic breakdowns, freezing, ridiculous prices, lousy af, and buggy software.  Leica is the only brand I’ve had to send in for repair, M9 and SL for sensor replacement.  With all of that, I love using the camera and am always enamored with the resulting images.  I have moments where I think, this is the time to sell before it’s not worth anything but, I’ve decided to jus ride out my considerable investment and enjoy it while I can.

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[Aktenschrank]

3 hours ago, JimKnopf said:

he himself said no in an interview.

I think new sensors, new camera technologies (e.g. other autofocus systems) will also need new approaches in optics in the future.

his new role: https://www.leica-enthusiast-podcast.de/episode/peter-karbe-zu-gast-bei-michel-birnbacher (the last 5 minutes)

Just because probably not everyone here speaks German a quick summary: In this Interview published 12/2021 Peter Karbe confirms that he has handed the job of head optical designer over to his successor and is now focussing on process optimisation between optical design and manufacturing as well as being a brand ambassador for optical design. He also mentions education and job training within the company as part of his new responsibilities.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Aktenschrank

[Slender]

12 hours ago, jaapv said:

This, I fear it does not illustrate your argument. 

my argument is simple tho: the leica lifestyle products line may help support the leica "actual photography/er" lines

[jaapv]

That is certainly true. ( I still regret not buying an M6-J set which was going cheap as the last in stock)

[Jk1002]

On 6/8/2022 at 2:42 AM, V23 said:

 

Firstly, photography is a pastime for me, landscape and nature. I am happy with my SL2-S with M lenses, 24-90 stays home most of the time. What I would like would be a Q2 with L or M mount as a travel camera, how hard would it be to reconfigured? 

I think this is how the SLs are positioned and make perfect sense. I find the SLs to be a compact enough package when using M lenses giving that we have the stabilization and ability to add autofocus and most import zoom. I can see Sl3 having  flip screen maybe, something we will not see on a M anytime soon I guess.

I dont see them ever going one on with with Canon, Nikon Fuji Sonys.

The ability to use M glas, the deep pockets of their customer base having this option just makes a lot of sense. 

 

[LBJ2]

9 hours ago, JimKnopf said:

he himself said no in an interview.

I think new sensors, new camera technologies (e.g. other autofocus systems) will also need new approaches in optics in the future.

his new role: https://www.leica-enthusiast-podcast.de/episode/peter-karbe-zu-gast-bei-michel-birnbacher (the last 5 minutes)

Thank you for posting. 

[beewee]

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9 hours ago, frame-it said:

you haven't tried a converted camera right ?

If I had, I wouldn’t need to think about it. 😆

[Alistairm]

When the original SL came out it was genuinely innovative. That gorgeous EVF and form factor. And the huge appeal of being able to shoot M lenses with an EVF and IBIS, and also the excellent quality of the native lenses. 

Since then, everyone else has caught up (and gone past Leica) in the mirrorless game, and while doing so the major companies have also drastically improved the quality of their lenses, so that Leica is not so obviously in front. 

And with the M11 and new Visoflex, Leica has put a nail in the coffin of the SL series by finally providing an rangefinder with EVF that is better to shoot M lenses on  than the SL bodies. (Other than lacking IBIS, the M11 is better than the SL cameras for M lenses in every way, which can be said about no M body before it.)

Add to all of this that if you’re objective is outright IQ the GFX100 and it’s lens ecosystem absolutely annihilates the SL system, and it’s cheaper, and it’s a similar size, and it is closer in AF performance and reliability to Sony/Nikon/Canon than the Leica bodies, and you start to wonder where the appeal is in the SL system to someone starting out fresh. 

For me, the SL2-S images, colour and out of camera flexibility moved the game on enough to keep me hanging on, but since getting the M11 I no longer shoot M lenses on the SL2-S and while I love shooting with the system, if I want a fairly large AF body the Canon R3 is vastly better for sports/wildlife and the GFX100S is vastly better for everything else. And you can own both of those and a range of lenses for the price of an SL2 and a couple of SL lenses. 

I’m pleased Leica ditched the CL (owned one, but no back button AF and the inherent weaknesses of APSC despite great lenses meant it was always compromised) and long-term I’d love to see Leica revitalise the S line and compete with Fuji and Hasselblad for outright IQ, because now that Sony/Nikon/Canon have revamped their “full frame” lineups and also released excellent lenses for those ecosystems, and now that the new Visoflex and M11 have given M lens users nothing to go to the SL for (other than IBIS), I fear that the SL system is less compelling than it once was. 

[robb]

Ibis and IS

Superior SL lens mtf at lower cost than lesser performing m apo lenses.

multishot in camera not needing outside programs 

much better evf than M

weatherproof

and AF

is what separates the SL2 from M system

if you need or prefer any of these as gamechangers, and others not mentioned then you are buying an SL2… I’m not opposed to M and use those lenses and smaller size on the SL2 also or an M body when they fit the situation.

pick up the Fuji lenses and bodies.  Some feel worse than a canon rebel kit lens regardless of file outcome.  Zero ownership excitement there.
nail in coffin - I disagree.  

Robb

[hansvons]

12 minutes ago, robb said:

I disagree.  

So do I.

Edited June 11, 2022 by hansvons

[Alistairm]

Fair enough! 

And time will tell I suppose. I still enjoy shooting my SL system, but there was a time when I felt that it was legitimately the best technical solution for image capturing available, not just the nicest to use. I could no longer advance that proposition with a straight face. 

Whatever happens, I doubt anyone is would seriously challenge the proposition that those overpriced APO M lenses will still be capturing light long after all of the other aforementioned systems have been relegated to landfill. 

[PeterGA]

Only noobie nuffies buy cameras because they think ( or read or are told) that this or that model is the 'best' at anything. People buy and stick with cameras that they like to have in hand and be with and use. It is the same thing in any market for any goods and services. Leica understands the importance of the Leica Feel over the so called Leica Look which has never existed anywhere - except on internet forums.

Every camera has a product life cycle - because it is a product. Sales go up and then they stop going up as they are replaced by newer iterations of the same old aperture/speed and ISO equation. Not rocket science

 

 

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by PeterGA

[Ko.Fe.]

On 6/10/2022 at 5:47 PM, ravinj said:

I find it hard to believe that outrageous SL battery prices in the USA are a result of low volumes. If that was the case Hasselblad's X1D batteries that have similar mechanics and capacity should be 2x-3x the price they sell for currently. X1D batteries are also better built - my BP-SCL4 cracked when it fell from 4ft. Hassy's have taken a lot more abuse and still held up.

And if we assume that SL batteries are somehow magical, look at the price of SL front/rear L lens caps. Sigma sells its rear L lens cap for $5, I don't see why Leica's should be multiples of those.

I was trying to smooth the corner instead of calling it as usual  

[frame-it]

16 hours ago, robb said:

Zero ownership excitement there.

maybe as far as the how the fuji body looks, but not with the gorgeous GFX files they produce plenty of excitement there

[robb]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

maybe as far as the how the fuji body looks, but not with the gorgeous GFX files they produce plenty of excitement there

Zero excitement on how it feels in the hands during use.  I’m glad the files make the other items bearable…

Robb

[jankap]

On 6/10/2022 at 9:57 PM, Slender said:

hehehe e :)))

I more specifically refered to those from the 90ies. M6 was by far the most massacred Leica for those occasions lol (yes its an actual diamond)

 

Are these at ebay already?

[Stuart Richardson]

I don't think the M11 changes anything regarding the SL system...an M11 plus EVF and a 35mm or 50mm APO lens is what, 20000 dollars? You are at around half that with an SL2 and APO Summicron and can use the difference to buy practically every native Sigma L mount lens, most of which perform better than most M lenses older than 5 years old. If you want to shoot with M lenses, the M is always going to be the best choice. Personally the original SL did not interest me at all when it was released, as it was a low resolution camera with only two lenses available, a very large zoom and an extraordinarily large prime. Fast forward a few years and the SL2 comes out with 47mp, excellent IBIS, multishot mode and a native lens ecosystem that is covered from top to bottom by Sigma, Panasonic and Leica, from 14mm to super telephoto (600mm?). The SL summicrons are significantly cheaper than the M equivalent lenses AND have higher performance. The body can of course use M lenses, but that was always more of a "nice to have" than a requirement for me. I clearly have different shooting preferences than some people here, but I for one and still very happy with the SL system and look forward to seeing where it goes.

As for the longevity of lenses, I think it is a bit of a red herring. Even though you can still use the older M lenses, they show their age just like any other lenses. I took over three M lenses from my dad when he stopped photography...a 28mm Elmarit V3, 90mm Tele Elmarit Thin and a 50mm Summilux non ASPH. They all have a lovely character, but none of them can make the most out of today's sensors. I expect the SL lenses to be good for at least 10-15 years, and still saleable after that, should I desire to replace them. The long life of lenses in the film era is more a function of the fact that the film changed much much slower than digital does. A twenty year old top notch lens in the film era would be just fine, but these days a twenty year old lens designed for film or a 6-10mp camera usually does not cut it on a 40-100mp body.

[Jon Warwick]

On 6/11/2022 at 9:58 PM, Alistairm said:

Add to all of this that if you’re objective is outright IQ the GFX100 and it’s lens ecosystem absolutely annihilates the SL system, and it’s cheaper, and it’s a similar size, ……

It’s an interesting opinion, and I’m not going to negate what you personally see. My own background is owning an SL2 + SL 50 APO, and selling the Leica for a GFX100S + GF63mm. At 60” wide prints, yes, I’d give the nod to the GFX against the SL2, but I think that’s simply a megapixel deficiency of the 47mp at that massive print size, and if the next iteration of the SL has a similar sensor to the M11, I think the differences between the Leica and GFX100 would be really really tiny.

It’s very plausible at a later stage that I might return to Leica SL for “color” cameras. The M10 Monochrom is the most satisfying digital camera I’ve ever owned (I think the lack of color filter array really makes a difference to my eyes in achieving a less “processed” look), but what I’ve learnt about the switch from SL2 —> GFX is the more limited lens flexibility that I can choose in terms of “different renderings”. With the SL2, I can use the perfect edge-to-edge sharp SL primes (no field curvature, great for landscapes, especially with an in-camera multi shot mode), and at the same time could use, as an extreme opposite example, an f1.2 50mm Noctilux to give an utterly different look and rendering. With the GFX, I’m finding the lenses are all very “digitally” sharp in terms of rendering, in my personal opinion … so the output is good to my eyes, but it’s more limiting for me in terms of aesthetic choices compared to what is possible with the SL + multiple M or SL lenses. And that flexibility of choosing different renderings with the SL system is something I’m starting to miss for color images.  

 

Edited June 12, 2022 by Jon Warwick

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[PeterGA]

@Jon Warwick : I see no difference between the GFX lenses and the SL lenses as far as distortion goes -  when using the GFX Fuji lenses- you have to compose then focus to get optimal performance : focus and recompose leads to sub optimal output...

Edited June 12, 2022 by PeterGA

[Peters]

One thing that I've noticed: the majority of Leica users are of the more mature demographic. This is probably to be expected, since they are perhaps more in tune with Leica's history, and at the same time have a greater affinity for the more simple and mechanical feel of its cameras. However, this demographic is naturally getting on a bit, and the older you are the less patience you will have for big, heavy equipment, which many would argue is against Leica's ethos of producing small and high quality cameras. 

This is only an observation, but it is based upon a number of conversations I have had with those in their 50s and 60s who have regretted their decision to buy an SL due to the sheer weight and heft of not just the body but also many of the lenses.  

If the above is true, then this presents three distinct challenges to Leica: 

1. The need to produce a smaller and lighter SL3.

2. The need to produce smaller, lighter, and faster L mount glass: Leica broke its 'high quality in a small package' ethos buy building 'highest quality at no compromise' L lenses. While the zooms and the 50 summilux might be the best lenses on the market, the problem is they are also some of the biggest, some of the most expensive, and apart from the summilux, some of the slowest (often with variable apertures) on the market. To compound this, other lens manufacturers have really caught up, and are capable of producing extremely high quality, faster and lighter glass for cheaper prices. While Leica might still claim its image quality is the best, we have reached a point of diminishing returns where the improvements in quality is only perceptible in perfect conditions and under a microscope. 

3. The need to broaden its demographic: Leica will need to market itself (and design its products) more for the next generation. I am not sure if those in their 30s-40s really appreciate the history of Leica than those in their 60s. I say this while I'm in my 30s. Having said that, I fully believe Leica can do it. There was a time when Leica brought in a young man who learnt from the best, and under their guidance, designed a small, light high quality camera, true to the Leica tradition, in a modern yet mechanical body.

That camera was called the Q.

I believe it is still doing extremely well. Let's see if they can bring the same ethos to the L mount. 

Edited June 13, 2022 by Peters