L-system - Why poor sales?

[hansvons]

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On 6/7/2022 at 6:51 AM, mzbe said:

I think it is fair to call Leica a lifestyle brand at this point (= the opposite of an efficiency-optimized mass production tool to do 300 weddings a year). To me that is not a pejorative, but a compliment. I only take pictures for fun. I want to maximize that fun. Leica is a great part of that experience - call me a materialist for caring too much about the tool, not just about the picture (otherwise why not simply use an iPhone?).

Interesting statement. I find everything Leica that smells lifestyle ridiculous. The exploration of the Leica brand through silly product variants (the James Bond stuff is totally bonkers), phones and expensive third party leather bags, and whatnot is, at least to my eyes, bowing down to funky markets that cater to an international nouveau riches clientele that doesn't give a dime for great art. But I do understand that the brand's success to even be able to sell expensive watches as a camera manufacturer is evidence of the high esteem Leica enjoys in that market. Neither Canon nor Nikon nor any other camera manufacturer could do that. But neither would I buy a Leica watch. I find that a ridiculous me-too thing, totally unauthentic, almost to the point that I feel somewhat disgusted. 

I totally get that "materialistic" point. Absolutely, user experience is a vital part of creation. Painters do care about their brushes and pigments. Likewise, I do care a lot about ergonomics, the feel, solidity, craftsmanship, and colour reproduction in cameras. Regardless of the ludicrous lifestyle excesses, what Leica accomplishes in user experience is second to none in the camera market. 

[Photoworks]

I must have a good of works.

last week started with a portrait of a CEO of a billion dollar company. He was so exited I was using a Leica SL2 that we had immediately a bond and the shoot was successful.

Another few day and the same repeated at a different company, and I go invited to come back. I then worked with him to the Leica Store and he got a 90mm.

For me the Leica SL2 are a tool that do the job well and give me pleasure to use.

occasionally I use Sony or canon when the tools are better for that. but in does cases nobody comes over to ask what camera are you using? the reason to tape the brands is so that you don't get interrupted by a bystander asking you questions when you are there to do some work.

Yes the Leica is expensive, but who cares. you rather have the money and use it or use something else..

I think the last few years have been very successful for the brand,  they came out with M10, Q2, SL2, M11. Leica use to have only few option and not they are on peoples mind.

I don't think the original SL was in so many people's hand!

And what other company give you Monochrom cameras? Special Edition? so Manu different 50mm that I can even count!

If you want this little German company to stick around and give you more exiting products, just buy some original Leica goodness and stop complaining .

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[LBJ2]

2 hours ago, mzbe said:

Upside of contrast-based AF is that there are no artifacts in the image caused by the AF pixels, unlike e.g. Fuji GFX (horizontal white stripes, …).

I don't know any Fujifilm cameras. But yes one of the well known issues with PDAF, is the potential for PDAF banding in some scenarios. I never saw it in my daily use with Sony cameras but when this brouhaha first struck the forums like a wave, once I understood, it was possible for me to to force the artifact with the Sony camera I had at the time. Supposedly, CDAF does not suffer from the same, even when forced. 

[Archiver]

20 hours ago, hansvons said:

Contrary to Sony, Panasonic never made it into the high-end cinema market. Even Canon didn't succeed with their C700, despite its camera assistant-friendly design. The reason was the same: colour. DOPs didn't like it. Too electronic, too video-ish, too vibrant, especially with skin tones. That's why it took Arri 10 years to update their sensor and colour science. In cinema land, colour is hyper sensitive. 

I've never shot with Panasonic cameras, but I had to work several times with Panasonic footage from the GH5 and AU-EVA that found their way into my projects. It had that vibrant video look which wasn't easy to come by when matching it with Arri and Red footage. I don't have these problems with the SL2-S in L-log (and Rec 2020/ACES).

Interesting! I've been watching the Netflix doc series Cheer, which use Varicam as the A cam and EVA1 as the B cam, shooting in v-log All-I 10bit 422. I'm not a huge fan of the colour grading for Cheer, but it's definitely not the vibrant video look from the non-log profiles from the GH series. I'm pretty happy with the results of the S5's v-log footage using Panasonic's Nicest 709 conversion LUT, it looks much less 'video like' compared with Cinelike D or Cinelike V from the Panasonic GH4 or G9. The S5's v-log is supposedly as close to Varicam's colour science as possible. And from what I recall, the Netflix series Ozark, and Orange is the New Black, were shot on Varicam.

[Slender]

On 6/7/2022 at 11:36 AM, frame-it said:

why? the SL2S sensor is newer than the SL2.

Not really no.... tis but the Sony A7III chip from 2018 or before - albeit new to Leica, with its own signal pipe-line and color protocols of course.

SL2 Chip from 2019 S1R from JazzTower (making Arri Alexa Sensors too)... just different philosophys.

They are both really good for different things, but you can't really say one is older/newer than the other

[Slender]

There is an alarming number or SL2 second hand here:

https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/product/leica-sl2

Ok but that also means leica sold them in the first place, right

[hansvons]

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3 hours ago, Archiver said:

nteresting! I've been watching the Netflix doc series Cheer, which use Varicam as the A cam and EVA1 as the B cam, shooting in v-log All-I 10bit 422. I'm not a huge fan of the colour grading for Cheer, but it's definitely not the vibrant video look from the non-log profiles from the GH series. I'm pretty happy with the results of the S5's v-log footage using Panasonic's Nicest 709 conversion LUT, it looks much less 'video like' compared with Cinelike D or Cinelike V from the Panasonic GH4 or G9. The S5's v-log is supposedly as close to Varicam's colour science as possible. And from what I recall, the Netflix series Ozark, and Orange is the New Black, were shot on Varicam.

Again interesting  It demonstrates that the Panasonic always had a strong market in the US. Back then, when Ozark was started, Arri had no 4K camera in their portfolio, but Netflix already had their 4K directive in place, which annoyed cinematographers a lot and made Arri develop a FF derivate of their Alev-III sensor that resolves 4K. At some point, the Ozark DOP swapped the Varicam for the Venice (at that time, the Alexa LF was available (and Netflix approved) but not in a compact Mini version, so he took the more compact Venice). But Ozark shows that excellent cinematography is possible with cameras that are not the first choice of most cinematographers. 

In Europe, especially Germany, Panasonic's Varicam didn't take off. TV-Commercial DOPs tend to shoot Arri, sometimes Red or Sony Venice. Anything else feature-like is Arri. In the documentary market, that's very different, of course. Sony's Fx series are strong, and so are the Canon EOS-C line and Panasonic with their S1H. 
Regardless, Panasonic always knew how to build excellent video cameras.

I'd be interested in testing S5 footage shot in v-log and giving it a try in ACES.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Slender said:

There is an alarming number or SL2 second hand here:

https://www.mpb.com/en-uk/product/leica-sl2

Ok but that also means leica sold them in the first place, right

But there's no SL2-S available. Perhaps these could be from people that swapped their SL2 for a S variant.

[Simone_DF]

10 hours ago, Photoworks said:

And what other company give you Monochrom cameras? Special Edition? so Manu different 50mm that I can even count!

If you want this little German company to stick around and give you more exiting products, just buy some original Leica goodness and stop complaining .

You know you can get basically any camera converted to monochrom by having the bayer filter removed, right? 

As for the 50mm, Sony has 25 different 50mm native options available, including lenses from Voigtlander and Zeiss. Even though I got the 50 and 90 APO SL, I hardly see the point in purchasing original Leica lenses nowadays that all companies produce stellar lenses.

https://bhpho.to/3mxBt6a

[frame-it]

4 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

But there's no SL2-S available. Perhaps these could be from people that swapped their SL2 for a S variant.

yes.

and

when the SL2 came out i saw a LOT of used SL's, when the SL2S came out there were even more SL2 and SL available used, when the SL3 with the M11 sensor comes out next year, there will be a lot of used SL2 and some SL2S on the market..isn't that normal?

[Simone_DF]

5 minutes ago, frame-it said:

when the SL2 came out i saw a LOT of used SL's, when the SL2S came out there were even more SL2 and SL available used, when the SL3 with the M11 sensor comes out next year, there will be a lot of used SL2 and some SL2S on the market..isn't that normal?

Yup. 

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

You know you can get basically any camera converted to monochrom by having the bayer filter removed, right? 

let's all run out and do that! it is ridiculous.

[frame-it]

3 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

let's all run out and do that! it is ridiculous.

what is ridiculous about it?

[Photoworks]

 

 

You know you can get basically any camera converted to monochrom by having the bayer filter removed, right? 

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

You know you can get basically any camera converted to monochrom by having the bayer filter removed, right? 

24 minutes ago, frame-it said:

what is ridiculous about it?

[frame-it]

3 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

 

 

You know you can get basically any camera converted to monochrom by having the bayer filter removed, right? 

yes....so...what is ridiculous about it?

[Photoworks]

4 minutes ago, frame-it said:

yes....so...what is ridiculous about it?

that I wold go out and buy a hasseblad or a Sony and send it in to get infrared or monochrome function on it.  for does 5 people there is a great Monochrom Leica camera already

[frame-it]

2 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

that I wold go out and buy a hasseblad or a Sony and send it in to get infrared or monochrome function on it.  for does 5 people there is a great Monochrom Leica camera already

though if one has spare cameras, one can send one of those cameras for a conversion

[BernardC]

13 hours ago, hansvons said:

I find everything Leica that smells lifestyle ridiculous. The exploration of the Leica brand through silly product variants (the James Bond stuff is totally bonkers), phones and expensive third party leather bags, and whatnot is, at least to my eyes, bowing down to funky markets that cater to an international nouveau riches clientele that doesn't give a dime for great art. But I do understand that the brand's success to even be able to sell expensive watches as a camera manufacturer is evidence of the high esteem Leica enjoys in that market. Neither Canon nor Nikon nor any other camera manufacturer could do that. But neither would I buy a Leica watch. I find that a ridiculous me-too thing, totally unauthentic, almost to the point that I feel somewhat disgusted. 

I'm not nearly as concerned as you are, for multiple reasons.

First, Leica runs a number of retail boutiques. They need stuff to sell in-between 4-year product cycles.

Second, and related to the first point, is the marketing aspect. Brands need to keep their name out there, and introduce the brand to new customers. As a long-time photographer, you know about Leica already, but others don't. A lot of potential customers don't follow photo blogs at all, but they do read travel magazines, or other media that might mention a co-branded product.

Third, Leica's co-brandings are generally very good quality. Sure, they sell bags, headphones, eyeglass frames, but the products that they sell are among the very best. It's not the usual branded swag that's straight out of an in-flight magazine. Have you had a close look at Nikon's bags? There's a reason why they are almost given away!

Fourth, none of this takes resources away from making cameras. It's all marketing, and as we know, Leica's marketing department would be a very sad place if they only worked on 4-year M releases. Even the watches are a separate company under the corporate umbrella. You may not care for watches, but it doesn't affect you, and at least they aren't just designing a watchface to re-brand an existing product.

[BernardC]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

In Europe, especially Germany, Panasonic's Varicam didn't take off. TV-Commercial DOPs tend to shoot Arri, sometimes Red or Sony Venice. Anything else feature-like is Arri. In the documentary market, that's very different, of course.

The Varicam has a mid-budget market. It excels in mixed light and portability. "Better Call Saul" is one such example: not the highest budget, but definitely a cinematic look. I don't know if the just-released final season was shot on Varicam, but previous seasons were.

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Hallo,

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[Simone_DF]

21 minutes ago, BernardC said:

the products that they sell are among the very best. It's not the usual branded swag that's straight out of an in-flight magazine.

Agree, this 600$ camera strap ooze quality and will make any photographer capture magic moments.

https://www.leicastoresf.com/new/leica-zegna-carrying-strap

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