L-system - Why poor sales?

[V23]

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Firstly, photography is a pastime for me, landscape and nature. I am happy with my SL2-S with M lenses, 24-90 stays home most of the time. What I would like would be a Q2 with L or M mount as a travel camera, how hard would it be to reconfigured? 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

SIGMA’s production system is completely based in Japan: our compact supply chain is concentrated in the Tohoku region and almost all manufacturing, processing and assembly takes place at our manufacturing base in Aizu. This is an extraordinary setup in an industry that mostly favors “global procurement”, in other words sourcing the cheapest parts from around the world. Why do we insist on manufacturing domestically, despite higher costs? Because we believe such a domestic system to be an essential factor for creating unique and high-quality products.

 

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/about/craftsmanship/

Sure. And I suppose Japan was not hit by covid and Sigma avoided all delays?

Anyway Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic also released a bunch of lenses in the last 2 years. Leica released only the rebranded 24-70, made by Sigma.

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[frame-it]

10 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

And I suppose Japan was not hit by covid and Sigma avoided all delays?

and i suppose its because they weren't dependent on china, Taiwan and Korea for certain parts?

[Simone_DF]

13 minutes ago, frame-it said:

and i suppose its because they weren't dependent on china, Taiwan and Korea for certain parts?

Then how do you explain Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic all releasing lenses?

Moreover, is Leica dependent on China, Taiwan and Korea for certain parts?

Edited June 8, 2022 by Simone_DF

[frame-it]

3 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Then how do you explain Canon, Sony, Fuji, Olympus, Panasonic all releasing lenses?

Moreover, is Leica dependent on China, Taiwan and Korea for certain parts?

perhaps their manufacturing facilities were still running smoothly except for the lack for certain parts?

the "raw" microprocessors are mostly made in Taiwan and Korea

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[hansvons]

18 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

That is really interesting...I found the colors in the S1 to be excellent....particularly the Camera Natural profile.

All I say now is hugely subjective. And the chance is super high that you are totally right because I've never taken stills with an S1. 

But back in the days when Panasonic entered the broadcast market with ENG cameras, they were following the idea of vibrancy. They were highly successful, especially in the US. Panasonic built at that time the DVX, a little video camera that resonated with the video enthusiast so much that it became THE video camera classic. Then came the cinema hopefuls and embraced Canon's 5dMk2 when it came out. Above all that, the cinema camera market went digital, with Red being the disruptive bad guy. Sony stayed in the game with their 1080p S35mm sized sensor, which was also sold to Panavision (F-35, if I recall correctly and now have solid market share with their Venice). In the meantime, Panasonic caught up and brought the Vari-Cam series. And for the smaller budget, the GH series, and then the S series. The latest is the GH6, which can even record ProRes. They all embraced and still embrace Panasonic's mantra of vibrancy.

Contrary to Sony, Panasonic never made it into the high-end cinema market. Even Canon didn't succeed with their C700, despite its camera assistant-friendly design. The reason was the same: colour. DOPs didn't like it. Too electronic, too video-ish, too vibrant, especially with skin tones. That's why it took Arri 10 years to update their sensor and colour science. In cinema land, colour is hyper sensitive. 

I've never shot with Panasonic cameras, but I had to work several times with Panasonic footage from the GH5 and AU-EVA that found their way into my projects. It had that vibrant video look which wasn't easy to come by when matching it with Arri and Red footage. I don't have these problems with the SL2-S in L-log (and Rec 2020/ACES).

[Stuart Richardson]

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That's really informative, thank you!

[Archiver]

22 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

One important reason for the low L mount bodies sales is that it's a brand new mount (excluding the original SL which was a niche product)

It's not easy to convince people to switch from their Canon / Nikon / Sony to a new mount with no history, and why would they, given the size, weight, price and AF performance penalties?

Besides, all makers now have truly outstanding lenses, there's less and less reasons to choose Leica instead of a Canon. 

Financially, it makes sense for me to use the EF lenses I already possess with my Panasonic S5, especially as I still use a 5D Mark II, and an EF Speedbooster on my m43 cameras. I have the kit 20-60 and 50/1.8 for my S5 so far, and am still figuring out which way to go.

If I only shot stills, I would have been better off with the Canon R system, using the EF-R adapter for my existing lenses, and slowly acquiring native R mount lenses over time. The EF-R adapter performance is reportedly very good, unlike the crapshoot of the Sigma MC21. But I primarily shoot video for work, and Panasonic is the best bang for buck in that area.

As an example: the Panasonic 24-105 is about the same size and weight as the first Canon 24-105, which would be a good match for my S5. But I currently have a Sigma 24-105, which is over 200g heavier, and requires the Sigma MC21 to work on the S5, which it does to a suboptimal level. Yet, I'm hesitant to give up the Sigma because a) it works much faster and more accurately on the Speedbooster XL with the Panasonic G9, and b) I can still use it on my 5D Mark II. The Canon 35L doesn't even autofocus on the MC21, but for manual focus work, it's fine, and again, it can be used with the Speedbooster and Canon bodies, something a native L mount lens can never do. EF glass is more versatile and future proof across bodies than L mount at this time, as who knows what the next ten years will bring for L mount.

 

[John Smith]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

All I say now is hugely subjective. And the chance is super high that you are totally right because I've never taken stills with an S1. 

But back in the days when Panasonic entered the broadcast market with ENG cameras, they were following the idea of vibrancy. They were highly successful, especially in the US. Panasonic built at that time the DVX, a little video camera that resonated with the video enthusiast so much that it became THE video camera classic. Then came the cinema hopefuls and embraced Canon's 5dMk2 when it came out. Above all that, the cinema camera market went digital, with Red being the disruptive bad guy. Sony stayed in the game with their 1080p S35mm sized sensor, which was also sold to Panavision (F-35, if I recall correctly and now have solid market share with their Venice). In the meantime, Panasonic caught up and brought the Vari-Cam series. And for the smaller budget, the GH series, and then the S series. The latest is the GH6, which can even record ProRes. They all embraced and still embrace Panasonic's mantra of vibrancy.

Contrary to Sony, Panasonic never made it into the high-end cinema market. Even Canon didn't succeed with their C700, despite its camera assistant-friendly design. The reason was the same: colour. DOPs didn't like it. Too electronic, too video-ish, too vibrant, especially with skin tones. That's why it took Arri 10 years to update their sensor and colour science. In cinema land, colour is hyper sensitive. 

I've never shot with Panasonic cameras, but I had to work several times with Panasonic footage from the GH5 and AU-EVA that found their way into my projects. It had that vibrant video look which wasn't easy to come by when matching it with Arri and Red footage. I don't have these problems with the SL2-S in L-log (and Rec 2020/ACES).

This is a little off subject, but I thought it might be good to comment here. I came across a video on YouTube of an Arri rep who spoke about Arri's philosophy of current lens design and cinematography. He spoke a lot about sharpness and contrast. Virtually everything he said mirrored what Peter Karbe has said about SL lenses. 

[Andreas_Kreuz]

Am 6.6.2022 um 19:59 schrieb Ivar B:

I think we have seen and heard that the L-system is not selling as well as one would have hoped. .... Any thoughts?

Too expensive

[hamey]

I started with Leica back 1973 when I got the SL, still got it, then the R3, R4, R4s R7, R8, and finally the R9 plus the M7 and M240 but sold it after a year, that was my last purchase of Leica equipment for me, that was back in 2013, since then I have switched to Fuji XT-1, XT-2  and the XH-1, boy I love this system, I am going to order the XH-2s.

I will NEVER FORGIVE  LEICA FOR DISCONTINUING  MY BELOVED R SYSTEM, and Frankly I couldn't give a damm about their BS, ( they have lost me) and I have met a few X Leica users who are of the same opinion.

It's a pity that Panasonic got mixed up with Leica, So that rules them out for me, I love Panasonic electronic equipment, my first transistor radio that I bought from them was back in 1967, It still works.

Cheers.

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by hamey

[Simone_DF]

31 minutes ago, Andreas_Kreuz said:

Too expensive

Come on, you can often find a S5 for 1500€ and sometimes these offers also include a lens

[LBJ2]

On 6/6/2022 at 10:14 PM, Stuart Richardson said:

I think is a big challenge for Panasonic, for sure. I will say one thing in favor of the AF in the Panasonic and SL2, however. While it may not be as fast or as usable in AFc, I have never used cameras that were more accurate in AFs. I have not had the latest Sony/Canon/Nikon cameras, so I cannot speak to their accuracy, but I assume it is very good. What I will say is that I cannot recall a single instance where my S1 or SL2 misfocused, if the camera had a green "focus confirmed" lock. It may be slower, but it is deadly accurate. I actually prefer this to a faster or better AFc implementation, as most of my work is about accuracy over speed, and I seldom need AFc or tracking. I also appreciate the lack of phase detect banding on the extreme ends of sensor utilization (strong pushes and high iso). I have had situations where it could not achieve focus due to lack of contrast, but unlike my experience with older phase detect cameras, it is always spot on. Most of the phase detect cameras I have had were prone to occasionally back or front focusing slightly. As resolution increases this gets more critical, all the more so with the extreme sharpness and shallow DOF that is possible with lenses like the apo summicron line or the 90-280.

All that said, I do recognize that if Leica and Panasonic want to cater to a larger market of photographers, they would likely win more converts with phase detect than they would sticking with DFD.

I continue to find the DFD/CDAF system on the SL2 can be very accurate without any special effort with the exception of heavy backlit scenes robbed of contrast which can cause AF miss. This is any contrast-detect autofocus technology in general to fail or struggle. 

I also find the SL2 to be very accurate in AFC with the one issue of the DFD wobble (AF system rapidly attempting to acquire contrast in the scene) we see in the EVF when using AFC. A confidence buster for sure to see that wobble, even though the camera clearly indicates the subject still or moving, is in focus. People feel it is not. But as I found, if you can ignore the slight wobble effect in the EVF and proceed and trust AF indicators, the hit rate can be very high even for fast moving targets. I've posted this comment and photos as proof the best I can on a few forums.

"IF" Panasonic could somehow fully eliminate visible DFD AFC wobble as seen in the SL2. Then people might feel more confident. From the time I've owned the SL2 fairly late in the product cycle, I think one of the recent firmware updates did reduce the DFD wobble slightly, but it's still there in AFC/Tracking modes.

Would I recommend DFD technology for critical high speed sports? No, not at this time, even though Yes it can be applied as I have proven, It's not what I would call the right tool for the job so I would of course recommend one of the other well known specifically designed high performance cameras like the Sony A1, Canon R3, Nikon Z9. 

For hobbyist to advanced enthusiast using the SL2 or SL2-S as an all-rounder, yes you can also use it for the sports/dance events or other fast movement activities. You just have to mind the level of contrast in the scene and if you use AFC/tracking ignore, the EVF DFD wobble. 

* I shoot the Sony A1 alongside the SL2. I am fully aware on a regular basis how AF performs and compares on both cameras. The Sony A1 AF is uncanny in it's speed of acquisition and stickiness and from what I read and see, Canon R5/R3 AF, Nikon Z9 AF is at the level of uncanny as well. 

Edited June 8, 2022 by LBJ2

[Jean-Michel]

Well, I own an SL2 and am very happy using it. I do not worry about how many or few are sold by Leica, the number is pure speculation since that data is likely protected information for Leica shareholders. I gather that no one from Leica in Wetzlar or Portugal has been laid off work, so some sort of balance between production and sales must exist. 
Anyone on this forum worrying about this perhaps can help by purchasing an extra body or two 😅

Jean-Michel

[robb]

I’m ok if Leica is doing really well and exclusivity stays with my shooting.  I’m ok that Leica is not in everyone else’s hands lol…

there is a value to me using tools that are not on every corner.

but that being said.  I believe sales are way up.

Robb

[bags27]

On 6/7/2022 at 12:51 AM, mzbe said:

I just sold my Nikon Z7 (and 6 lenses) and am replacing it with a SL2s ... IMHO Leica SL is mostly competitive with the 'big boys' in areas where autofocus speed is not a key priority. For me the desired upside is simplification through a more consistent user experience between my Leica Ms and the SL. All of the other brands also have significant blind spots, there is no single camera that is best under all circumstances. I give Leica credit for indulging in crazy lenses like Noctilux and Thambar, great industrial design, and sticking to much of their long standing, quirky traditions.

I think it is fair to call Leica a lifestyle brand at this point (= the opposite of an efficiency-optimized mass production tool to do 300 weddings a year). To me that is not a pejorative, but a compliment. I only take pictures for fun. I want to maximize that fun. Leica is a great part of that experience - call me a materialist for caring too much about the tool, not just about the picture (otherwise why not simply use an iPhone?).

Great points, all! Thanks.

The one area where cell phone photography can not even pretend to compete is in sports and nature (sort of the same) photography. And Canon and Nikon have long held that field, and now Sony, too. That can, in part, explain their relative success in the higher priced market. I'm surprised at how poorly Fuji is doing, considering that it effectively controls both the cropped sensor and medium format markets.

I continue (like many of us) to have a love-hate relationship with Leica. The branding and corporate secrecy bother me a lot, but its pursuit of absurdly high performance and design at any cost is so very admirable. 

 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

I continue to find the DFD/CDAF system on the SL2 can be very accurate without any special effort with the exception of heavy backlit scenes robbed of contrast which can cause AF miss. This is any contrast-detect autofocus technology in general to fail or struggle. 

I also find the SL2 to be very accurate in AFC with the one issue of the DFD wobble (AF system rapidly attempting to acquire contrast in the scene) we see in the EVF when using AFC. A confidence buster for sure to see that wobble, even though the camera clearly indicates the subject still or moving, is in focus. People feel it is not. But as I found, if you can ignore the slight wobble effect in the EVF and proceed and trust AF indicators, the hit rate can be very high even for fast moving targets. I've posted this comment and photos as proof the best I can on a few forums.

"IF" Panasonic could somehow fully eliminate visible DFD AFC wobble as seen in the SL2. Then people might feel more confident. From the time I've owned the SL2 fairly late in the product cycle, I think one of the recent firmware updates did reduce the DFD wobble slightly, but it's still there in AFC/Tracking modes.

Would I recommend DFD technology for critical high speed sports? No, not at this time, even though Yes it can be applied as I have proven, It's not what I would call the right tool for the job so I would of course recommend one of the other well known specifically designed high performance cameras like the Sony A1, Canon R3, Nikon Z9. 

For hobbyist to advanced enthusiast using the SL2 or SL2-S as an all-rounder, yes you can also use it for the sports/dance events or other fast movement activities. You just have to mind the level of contrast in the scene and if you use AFC/tracking ignore, the EVF DFD wobble. 

* I shoot the Sony A1 alongside the SL2. I am fully aware on a regular basis how AF performs and compares on both cameras. The Sony A1 AF is uncanny in it's speed of acquisition and stickiness and from what I read and see, Canon R5/R3 AF, Nikon Z9 AF is at the level of uncanny as well. 

Upside of contrast-based AF is that there are no artifacts in the image caused by the AF pixels, unlike e.g. Fuji GFX (horizontal white stripes, …).

[frame-it]

29 minutes ago, mzbe said:

Upside of contrast-based AF is that there are no artifacts in the image caused by the AF pixels, unlike e.g. Fuji GFX (horizontal white stripes, …).

ive never seen horizontal white stripes on my GFX shots..are you talking about people who shoot with incorrect exposures and try to lift the image up a lot?

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, frame-it said:

ive never seen horizontal white stripes on my GFX shots..are you talking about people who shoot with incorrect exposures and try to lift the image up a lot?

I don’t have a GfX 100 but seen reports and examples e.g. from Diglloyd; have observed recurring PDAF patterns in high ISO noise on some of my own cameras.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

14 minutes ago, mzbe said:

I don’t have a GfX 100 but seen reports and examples e.g. from Diglloyd; have observed recurring PDAF patterns in high ISO noise on some of my own cameras.

have you seen the conditions under which those lines might appear? probably pushing an image with no data at least 5 or more stops..its nice as a test and to get clicks on a webpage, but i wonder who actually does paid  shoots like that