L-system - Why poor sales?

[MakinMemories]

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All I can say is while I was looking at the SL2, another customer came in the store and bought an SL2 and 24-90mm. As for myself, I bought an SL2 bundle with the 24-70, 90-280 and the 50 1.4...doing my part🙂

[caissa]

The SL2 is now quite old and will hopefully be soon replaced by a SL3 (fall 2023 ?). The numbers for the SL3 will be more important.

In all fairness the numbers for SL2 and SL2-S should be combined. (But I guess nobody has any numbers at all .... so a discussion without the basis of real facts.)

What worries me is that Pana does not offer a S2R, yet. Are they not planning for a next generation, or have they simply no money to bring it out ?

Do I need an SL3 or S2R ? Would I want to upgrade ? Actually no, it is easily possible that I would skip because what I have is good enough. I do not know how others feel, but I could imagine that many are in a similar situation. Not ideal for business.

Edited June 7, 2022 by caissa

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[tom.w.bn]

A friend of mine owns a classical camera/photo business and they sell all brands. He is quite content with the L-Mount sales (More Panasonic than Leica of course). That does not mean that they sell more L-Mount than Canon or Sony. That does mean that it's worthwile to have equipment in stock and that the companies are content with the dealer. 

The only brand he does not like to sell is Nikon because that company makes it really hard for smaller dealers to sell their stuff.

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by tom.w.bn

[hansvons]

1 hour ago, caissa said:

What worries me is that Pana does not offer a S2R, yet. Are they not planning for a next generation, or have they simply no money to bring it out ?

Panasonic is somewhat in that tech race with Canon, Sony and Nikon involved. That's why we think the S1H is long in the tooth. Which it's not, from a video point of view. As Fuji caters the Medium format and APS-C format niche and not taking part in that race, Panasonic might be looking to become the hybrid/video boss in the ring. From my point of view, their weakness is colour. Their refreshed friendship with Leica might improve on that. All of that takes time.

1 hour ago, caissa said:

Do I need an SL3 or S2R ? Would I want to upgrade ? Actually no, it is easily possible that I would skip because what I have is good enough. I do not know how others feel, but I could imagine that many are in a similar situation. Not ideal for business.

Leica's biggest competitor is Leica. At the moment business isn't well anywhere, except fossil fuel and weapons 

[frame-it]

3 hours ago, caissa said:

In all fairness the numbers for SL2 and SL2-S should be combined.

why? the SL2S sensor is newer than the SL2.

[Simone_DF]

One important reason for the low L mount bodies sales is that it's a brand new mount (excluding the original SL which was a niche product)

It's not easy to convince people to switch from their Canon / Nikon / Sony to a new mount with no history, and why would they, given the size, weight, price and AF performance penalties?

Besides, all makers now have truly outstanding lenses, there's less and less reasons to choose Leica instead of a Canon. 

[Kim Dahl]

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15 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

In Australia at least there's next to zero marketing.

I don't know of any photographer who uses a L mount Panasonic. Not one.

Plenty of video guys using GH5's, but I don't know a single person using a Panasonic for stills. 

It is the same here in Denmark.  GH5 is used by a few videographers.  I think VERY few l are being sold for L Mount.  

M of Leica, few have been sold.  The ones I know are +50

Q sellers to quite a few professional photographers.  But L Mount for Leica is not popular - unfortunately.

[Kim Dahl]

8 hours ago, Gavin Cato said:

I agree about the SL being extremely accurate, if a tad slow.

With the latest Canon, the R5's I have here the accuracy is pretty crazy. Come home with 5000+ images after a wedding and maybe 5-8 (no exaggeration) are out of focus.

 

I can only confirm.  I have Canon R3 and have had it for about 3 months.  As a professional press photographer.  It's lightning fast and the focus is spot on almost every time.  Leica Panasonic is (so) far behind.  Not that Leica can not focus but with AF (C) it works very poorly in comparison.  I am very happy with my Canon R3 and have heard their new APSC R7 and R10 (which are cheap starting cameras) are on the same level as the R3. 

[Stuart Richardson]

3 hours ago, hansvons said:

 From my point of view, their weakness is colour. Their refreshed friendship with Leica might improve on that. All of that takes time.

 

That is really interesting...I found the colors in the S1 to be excellent....particularly the Camera Natural profile. I much prefer them to the Canon/Nikon/Fuji/Sony look, and I found them better than the color from the Leica S3 and M10, but not quite as good as the S006 and SL2. Color is clearly very subjective though. What did you find lacking? Perhaps it was using a log profile? I tend not to use those...

[robb]

I’ve heard from my dealer that sales have been very good for sl2 and sl2-s.  The trade in program with coupons toward bodies and lenses was hugely successful.

 

I took advantage of that promotion and am very happy.  I’m sure Leica made a lot of money off it.  
 

Robb

[BernardC]

This whole thread seems to be based on a weak foundation.

We know that the SL, SL2 and SL2-S have been successful products for Leica. Maybe the sales volume isn't huge compared to Canon or Sony, but it seems to be quite good from Leica's point of view. We also know that the fp sold beyond Sigma's expectations. They've mentioned this in interviews.

Panasonic released two new L-mount cameras in the past year: BS1H and S5. Is that a sign of a failure? The S5 is widely available. I don't think that retailers would stock it if it wasn't moving.

Discounts and bundles don't mean anything. Everybody has them!

 

In short, is the L Mount "popular?" Not when we compare it to entry-level mass market brands. You probably won't find them in your local electronics store.

Are sale "poor?" It's impossible to tell. Leica and Sigma are happy. Panasonic knows how to establish a brand in a competitive market. Maybe they expected to be #1 by now, but I doubt it. It's more likely that they had a product plan that covered several generations of cameras.

[Simone_DF]

Yeah, so much success for the SL2. Price was dropped from 6500 to 4500 with the SL2-s, then bundled with the rebranded Sigma for further discounts, then a couple of months later a free L-M adapter worth 300€ was added as an additional incentive, then a trade in program. 

Was that effort succesful? Probably yes, given the amount of new people jumping in on this same forum, and I genuinely hope so. But all of these promotions dropping one after another within a few months reek of desperation. I've never seen anything like this for the M or the Q, because they sell well.

[jrp]

I see that Leica has now joined Panasonic in an L2 alliance.  Don’t know what that means. 
I went back to my old Sony A7r2 and tiny af lenses because I broke a bone and don’t want to carry the SL2 and lenses until it heals.  I took the opportunity to buy an A1 so I have some experience of both systems. For straight landscapes and build quality, the SL2 is unbeatable. The A1 feels less well built, but it is very responsive and the AF is a generation or two ahead of Leica / Panasonic for moving subjects. A small number of the Sony lenses are of comparable quality to the Leica ones and each new one seems to be playing in the Leica league, while being lighter and faster. Wherever you have a Sigma L lens, there will be an E-mount equivalent.

All that said, once I am healed, I will probably go back to the Leica as the shooting experience is so much better ‘ simpler, unless there are people or animals in the frame …  

The other things about Leica is, of course, the price … it will be interesting to see how they respond to the cost of living / inflation crisis. The price makes me hesitate to take some Leica lenses out for fear of damaging them 

[jrp]

… and I should have said that the high ISO performance of the A1 seems to me to be on a par with the SL2, which surprised me. I wouldn’t use the A1 above 3200 without using noise reduction.  

[Jim B]

On 6/6/2022 at 1:59 PM, Ivar B said:

I think we have seen and heard that the L-system is not selling as well as one would have hoped. Leica as well as Panasonic need to discount to achieve decent sales. What is the main problem? Up to now, perhaps Sigma is the most innovative and active of the alliance members. New lenses keep coming all the time, offering very good quality at reasonable prices. Leica has as yet not released the 21 and 24mm lenses which were announced a couple of years ago. Also, not that much seem to happen in the Panasonic camp. In my opinion, L-lenses are not the bottleneck at present. There are enough lenses around to satisfy most needs. The camera bodies seem to be the main problem (?). Too large and heavy, and perhaps not performing well enough in critical areas like autofocus performance. Competition is extremely strong, and we see new camera bodies coming all the time from, say, Nikon or Canon. There is a need for some new offering of L bodies, I think. I would like to see a new body, say the size and weight of the Panasonic S5, with new sensors with more resolution and optimized auto focus performance. Any thoughts?

 

I like the size and weight of my SL2. Over the years, I had a lot of cameras, and it really is made to a professional quality. It balances m lenses like my 75Noctilux quite nicely.  I find it impossible to use on an m body as half the range finder is blocked.

In the USA, I see it going in, and out of stock. Where do you see it not selling well? 

[Jeff S]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

 I've never seen anything like this for the M or the Q, because they sell well.

Or because these do not compete as directly with the big brand, more price sensitive, interchangeable lens mirrorless digitals. The M system, and its customer base, is unique, and the Q has relatively few if any direct rivals.  The SL system, by comparison, swims in more crowded waters.  So marketing strategies may differ, not necessarily indicative of disappointing sales. 

Jeff

[MakinMemories]

12 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Or because these do not compete as directly with the big brand, more price sensitive, interchangeable lens mirrorless digitals. The M system, and its customer base, is unique, and the Q has relatively few if any direct rivals.  The SL system, by comparison, swims in more crowded waters.  So marketing strategies may differ, not necessarily indicative of disappointing sales. 

Jeff

Bingo! I highlighted the key phrase above...

[Jeff S]

There’s a reason there’s an L alliance, but no M or Q alliance.  Leica understood the broader market challenges for the SL system, and priced the gear accordingly.  A $14k 90 Summilux sells better as an M lens than an SL lens, even though it may feel more at home on the SL body. The lens barrels, and many internal parts, are shared on SL Summicrons to create necessary economies of scale. Same with the newly developed and more efficient lens production processes. Different systems; different strategies, including marketing/pricing.

Jeff

Edited June 7, 2022 by Jeff S

[Simone_DF]

8 hours ago, Jeff S said:

Or because these do not compete as directly with the big brand, more price sensitive, interchangeable lens mirrorless digitals. The M system, and its customer base, is unique, and the Q has relatively few if any direct rivals.  The SL system, by comparison, swims in more crowded waters.  So marketing strategies may differ, not necessarily indicative of disappointing sales. 

That is definitely part of the reason, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Another indicative factor is the very slow release of SL lenses. The 21 and 24mm are still nowhere to be seen. Sure, Covid and semiconductor crisis are to be blamed too, but they were supposed to be released in 2020 and two years later they are still vaporware, while Sigma and other companies kept releasing new glass with little to no delays.

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[frame-it]

27 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That is definitely part of the reason, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Another indicative factor is the very slow release of SL lenses. The 21 and 24mm are still nowhere to be seen. Sure, Covid and semiconductor crisis are to be blamed too, but they were supposed to be released in 2020 and two years later they are still vaporware, while Sigma and other companies kept releasing new glass with little to no delays.

SIGMA’s production system is completely based in Japan: our compact supply chain is concentrated in the Tohoku region and almost all manufacturing, processing and assembly takes place at our manufacturing base in Aizu. This is an extraordinary setup in an industry that mostly favors “global procurement”, in other words sourcing the cheapest parts from around the world. Why do we insist on manufacturing domestically, despite higher costs? Because we believe such a domestic system to be an essential factor for creating unique and high-quality products.

 

https://www.sigma-global.com/en/about/craftsmanship/