L-system - Why poor sales?

[Ivar B]

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I think we have seen and heard that the L-system is not selling as well as one would have hoped. Leica as well as Panasonic need to discount to achieve decent sales. What is the main problem? Up to now, perhaps Sigma is the most innovative and active of the alliance members. New lenses keep coming all the time, offering very good quality at reasonable prices. Leica has as yet not released the 21 and 24mm lenses which were announced a couple of years ago. Also, not that much seem to happen in the Panasonic camp. In my opinion, L-lenses are not the bottleneck at present. There are enough lenses around to satisfy most needs. The camera bodies seem to be the main problem (?). Too large and heavy, and perhaps not performing well enough in critical areas like autofocus performance. Competition is extremely strong, and we see new camera bodies coming all the time from, say, Nikon or Canon. There is a need for some new offering of L bodies, I think. I would like to see a new body, say the size and weight of the Panasonic S5, with new sensors with more resolution and optimized auto focus performance. Any thoughts?

 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Ivar B

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, Ivar B said:

I think we have seen and heard that the L-system is not selling as well as one would have hoped

Where? What were Leica's sales forecasts?

I must be blind and deaf.

Edited June 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

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[Ivar B]

9 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Where? What were Leica's sales forecasts?

I must be blind and deaf.

I don`t have any numbers, but nobody likes their merchandise to be glued to the shelves. I see mint and hardly used SL2 remaining unsold for weeks and weeks despite heavy discounts. I don`t have any forecasts for the sale of APS-C like the CL, but even a blind and deaf can see that they were not selling.

 

[LocalHero1953]

The only figures that count are: did sales meet business plan expectations.
The reason for my first comment was that you started "...we have seen and heard......" - sorry, but I'm not included in that "we".

Speculation remains just speculation without numbers - but it can be fun! 
 

Edited June 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Ivar B]

5 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The only figures that count are: did sales meet business plan expectations.
Speculation is fun, but remains speculation without numbers. 

Leica would not have abandoned the APS-C if the system was selling. I don`t have any numbers, but this is not speculation and should be easy for most of us to see. Others with insight into the market have noted before that that heavy discounts are necessary for the SL2 to sell. Nobody discounts just for fun. If the products were selling, there would be no need. This is not speculation.  The good news I hear is the M11, where demand outstrips supply. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

Deciding that the future of APSC is limited is not the same as concluding that it has not met sales expectations to date.
As for those with "insights into the market" - I doubt they have any any more real numbers than I have. Most of those I have heard just seem to be someone with a mate at a Leica dealer, and ..... still no numbers.
I'm curious where you are seeing heavy discounting: the SL2 was priced at launch at £5300, the same as Red Dot Cameras sells it for now. The SL2-S ditto at £3975. So discounted by inflation, but not heavy discounting to achieve sales.

I have no problem with speculation, but you can't assume everyone starts from the same assumptions.
Sorry, I didn't intend to hijack your thread - I've had my say and I'll drop out.

Edited June 6, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Jeff S]

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Where are new SL2s being discounted?  How many people have added and/or switched to an SL2-S?  
 

Jeff

[Stuart Richardson]

I think these things go in cycles. I would not really consider the CL part of the L system, but I guess that is incorrect. I think you can certainly look at the CL/TL as part of a totally different market, and frankly I am not surprised that it did not go so well. Fuji has such a well-developed APS system with cameras that appeal to a similar group of people who like Leica gear (not all, of course, but Fuji is directed pretty heavily towards photographers who like classic styling and controls). The problem with the CL/TL system for Leica is that Leica is now marketed more as a luxury company that offers cost no object optical perfection. That is not the CL/TL line, which winds up being both more expensive than other APS cameras (and even full frame cameras) and at the same time optically inferior to Leica's main line M, Q, S and SL cameras. They were too expensive for users looking primarily for good compact cameras, and too low on image quality for the market of people looking for optical perfection, who are better served by full frame cameras. They are very nice cameras, just not attractive enough to the market. In a way, I think the biggest thing Leica did to kill the CL/TL line was introduce the Q line, which is a lot more in keeping with what the majority of Leica users seem to value.

As for the SL line, it seems like the SL2S has sold well and been very well received. The SL2 is now several years into its life, and approaching "end of life"...obviously not for the cameras utility, but for that particular body as a new camera. I was at Paris Photo while they had a launch event, and that would have been November 2019, so approaching three years at this point. That is getting old these days. The sales are also likely to have slowed because of competition from the SL2S and from the M10R/M11, all of which are newer. There were also a number of SL2 cameras that came to market once the SL2S was released, as some photographers priority low light work and are happy with 24mp, so they sold their SL2 cameras when the SL2S came out...Paul is one of those people, if I recall correctly. It seems to me like there is still a good amount of interest in the L mount on the Leica side of things.

Panasonic is another story. It seems like there is not as much interest lately in their L mount cameras, but I think the S1H and S5 still find some buyers. It is a shame, as these cameras are truly excellent. I think in this case it is one of the competition being fierce, and the other companies having such a commanding head start. Sony, Canon and Nikon all have entrenched lens catalogs, established pro service and a wide range of accessories. It seems Panasonic suffers the most from their choice to double down on contrast detect AF, which is not what most users seem to want. Additionally, the S1 cameras are now getting long in the tooth, and unless Panasonic updates them, it seems likely that the line will end. I have a feeling that the future may be a bit like the past here. Given the new L2 alliance, I have a feeling we might see something like the older Leica/Panasonic cameras like the Digilux. The next Panasonic L mount cameras might wind up being smaller or more video centric cameras that do not compete as directly with Sony/Canon/Nikon. That same camera might come out in a Leica branding, perhaps taking over the niche that the CL/TL cameras used to inhabit. I suspect it will be full frame, however.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Stuart Richardson

[Anbaric]

1 hour ago, Ivar B said:

Competition is extremely strong, and we see new camera bodies coming all the time from, say, Nikon or Canon.

I have no idea what the sales figures are, but competition in a crowded marketplace may well be sufficient explanation if they are low. The M cameras are a unique offerering and are what I suspect many people still think of as 'proper Leicas', with no real competition. People are prepared to pay a premium for the heritage and the Rangefinder Experience that Leica so assiduously promotes. The L system, like the R system before it, has to compete in a different space with the big names like Canon and Nikon, and Sony has now joined them. Leica's partners in the L-mount Alliance have solid ranges, but is there a compelling enough reason to choose them ahead of the brand leaders? You can, after all, buy a Sigma lens for your Sony. Leica's own L lenses are obviously excellent, but very expensive, and it's not as if lens quality is exactly a limiting factor with the more popular brands. If you have existing M or R lenses you are going to have to buy an adapter, at which point you might ask - why not buy (say) a Nikon Z adapter?

[Tailwagger]

38 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

It seems like there is not as much interest lately in their L mount cameras, but I think the S1H and S5 still find some buyers. It is a shame, as these cameras are truly excellent.

For the average buyer, it's not much of a surprise AFAIC.  The biggest problem is that DFD/CDAF simply can't hold a candle to the competitions PDAF implementations.  The Pano glass is good, but its not much of a positive differentiator either.  Leica glass OTOH is, or at least is perceived as such. And when you're both capable and willing to step up to fork over 5k+ for a prime, you're not likely to mount on anything other than a Leica body.  But the mainstream market is far more about the bells and whistles, not the optics which puts Pano an extreme disadvantage. 

The thing I am a little surprised about is that they've yet to rev the S1R.  Its one thing for Leica to run a four year product cycle, but given the ferocity of competition in the MILC FF market to remain competitive the S1 family needs to move to S2 much sooner rather than later. 

[C8lSE]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Jeff S:

Where are new SL2s being discounted?

There were trade-in and bundle-options, for example.

[Gavin Cato]

In Australia at least there's next to zero marketing.

I don't know of any photographer who uses a L mount Panasonic. Not one.

Plenty of video guys using GH5's, but I don't know a single person using a Panasonic for stills. 

[hansvons]

2 hours ago, Ivar B said:

I would like to see a new body, say the size and weight of the Panasonic S5, with new sensors with more resolution and optimized auto focus performance. Any thoughts?

Agree. Smaller size, yes. But 24 MP is well enough. I prefer good pixels over many pixels. But that won't happen. A relatively compact L mount camera that works well with M lenses and has a brilliant EVF is dangerous for the M, and Q. Better AF is very likely on top of the list, but the body size will probably remain the same.

 

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

The next Panasonic L mount cameras might wind up being smaller or more video centric cameras that do not compete as directly with Sony/Canon/Nikon.

Interesting thought. When Panasonic brought full-frame cameras to the market and accompanied the S1 with the S1H, they became THE hybrid manufacturer with an apparent tilt towards video. Actually, The S1H is more of a video camera than anything else. Their reputation is video, much more than, say, Nikon. If I were them, I'd leverage that.

 

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As for the SL line, it seems like the SL2S has sold well and been very well received. The SL2 is now several years into its life, and approaching "end of life"...obviously not for the cameras utility, but for that particular body as a new camera.

The SL2-S isn't a new SL2 camera. It's more a video-optimised derivate of the SL2. I think of it as Leica's first steps into pro-video. Besides, Leica has the luxury of not feeling obliged to participate in that race Canon and Nikon are in. Their brand isn't based on the newest and coolest but on consistency and picture quality. Arri, the German cine camera manufacturer, recently showcased the next generation of their Alexa line, finally with a new 4K sensor in APC size. That is after 10 years of development. Meanwhile, the competition is already in their 2nd and 3rd generation but didn't take any market share from Arri - on the contrary. First reviews say it's the best cine camera ever. 

Is the SL2 old in the tooth? Not in Leica terms. No competition can improve image quality, colour, optics, or even EVF. But I'm sure in 2023-24 will see a new SL3. I'm guessing here totally uninformed. But I think it won't be a pixel monster. Others can do that better. Nor will it be an AF rocket. It will be the industry's benchmark in colour, sensitivity and noise. Plus, it will have very decent video capabilities, say ProRes RAW internal etc. ... and it will have a flippy screen. But the best in the market. Not that I want one. But it's inevitable when video will be a selling proposition for the SL line. 

[jaapv]

48 minutes ago, Gavin Cato said:

In Australia at least there's next to zero marketing.

I don't know of any photographer who uses a L mount Panasonic. Not one.

Plenty of video guys using GH5's, but I don't know a single person using a Panasonic for stills. 

That is Australia. Over here they are selling quite well, with cashback promotions, accessory bundles and other marketing tools.

[Photoworks]

It is good to drop CL in my view and focus on full frame.

They can't even produce enough 35mm lenses to fill the market .

[Stuart Richardson]

6 hours ago, Tailwagger said:

For the average buyer, it's not much of a surprise AFAIC.  The biggest problem is that DFD/CDAF simply can't hold a candle to the competitions PDAF implementations. 

I think is a big challenge for Panasonic, for sure. I will say one thing in favor of the AF in the Panasonic and SL2, however. While it may not be as fast or as usable in AFc, I have never used cameras that were more accurate in AFs. I have not had the latest Sony/Canon/Nikon cameras, so I cannot speak to their accuracy, but I assume it is very good. What I will say is that I cannot recall a single instance where my S1 or SL2 misfocused, if the camera had a green "focus confirmed" lock. It may be slower, but it is deadly accurate. I actually prefer this to a faster or better AFc implementation, as most of my work is about accuracy over speed, and I seldom need AFc or tracking. I also appreciate the lack of phase detect banding on the extreme ends of sensor utilization (strong pushes and high iso). I have had situations where it could not achieve focus due to lack of contrast, but unlike my experience with older phase detect cameras, it is always spot on. Most of the phase detect cameras I have had were prone to occasionally back or front focusing slightly. As resolution increases this gets more critical, all the more so with the extreme sharpness and shallow DOF that is possible with lenses like the apo summicron line or the 90-280.

All that said, I do recognize that if Leica and Panasonic want to cater to a larger market of photographers, they would likely win more converts with phase detect than they would sticking with DFD.

[beewee]

This data is about a year old but you can see the market share breakdown:

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This is for Mirrorless segment:

 

 

Panasonic is around 4.4% as of Oct 2021 but it includes their M43 system which is much bigger than the Lumix S full-frame business.

 

 

 

 

 

[beewee]

As for why Panasonic and the SL system is doing poorly, I think there are a number of factors, including:

• Lower overall volumes mean fewer retail channels, meaning less brand exposure, leading to fewer sales because people can’t touch and feel the camera.
• AF performance is not as good compared to Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, but I don’t think it’s the primary driver
• Panasonic cameras and lenses tend to be more expensive than Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji, especially on their entry level. Panasonic cheaper S-body is the S5 which is by no means a entry level camera when you compare it against Canon Rebel or R7 and R9, Nikon Z5. Lenses are also much more expensive. The 20-60mm kit lenses is a few hundred dollars compared to other systems where you can get a much cheaper kit lens to start with.

I think entry level pricing to get into the system is probably one of the biggest factors for Panasonic. They don’t have the ability to sell in large volumes, so they have to start at the higher end. In order to get into the large volume sales, it takes a massive amount of capital, both in development, manufacturing, distribution, marketing, and time to establish the brand. 

[Gavin Cato]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

I have not had the latest Sony/Canon/Nikon cameras, so I cannot speak to their accuracy, but I assume it is very good.

I agree about the SL being extremely accurate, if a tad slow.

With the latest Canon, the R5's I have here the accuracy is pretty crazy. Come home with 5000+ images after a wedding and maybe 5-8 (no exaggeration) are out of focus.

 

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[Guest]

9 hours ago, Anbaric said:

I have no idea what the sales figures are, but competition in a crowded marketplace may well be sufficient explanation if they are low. The M cameras are a unique offerering and are what I suspect many people still think of as 'proper Leicas', with no real competition. People are prepared to pay a premium for the heritage and the Rangefinder Experience that Leica so assiduously promotes. The L system, like the R system before it, has to compete in a different space with the big names like Canon and Nikon, and Sony has now joined them. Leica's partners in the L-mount Alliance have solid ranges, but is there a compelling enough reason to choose them ahead of the brand leaders? You can, after all, buy a Sigma lens for your Sony. Leica's own L lenses are obviously excellent, but very expensive, and it's not as if lens quality is exactly a limiting factor with the more popular brands. If you have existing M or R lenses you are going to have to buy an adapter, at which point you might ask - why not buy (say) a Nikon Z adapter?

I just sold my Nikon Z7 (and 6 lenses) and am replacing it with a SL2s ... IMHO Leica SL is mostly competitive with the 'big boys' in areas where autofocus speed is not a key priority. For me the desired upside is simplification through a more consistent user experience between my Leica Ms and the SL. All of the other brands also have significant blind spots, there is no single camera that is best under all circumstances. I give Leica credit for indulging in crazy lenses like Noctilux and Thambar, great industrial design, and sticking to much of their long standing, quirky traditions.

I think it is fair to call Leica a lifestyle brand at this point (= the opposite of an efficiency-optimized mass production tool to do 300 weddings a year). To me that is not a pejorative, but a compliment. I only take pictures for fun. I want to maximize that fun. Leica is a great part of that experience - call me a materialist for caring too much about the tool, not just about the picture (otherwise why not simply use an iPhone?).