Kwesi Posted March 1, 2022 Share #161 Posted March 1, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, 250swb said: The M9 is a classic based on it making fantastic photos (and still does), and that it fulfilled the concept started but not finished by the M8. The M10 or M10R rationalised the concept started with the M240 but they still aren't classics. The M11 simply spread some more jam on top of jam so if you can find the element in it that will justify spending loads of money you are one of the lucky ones, but I suspect most people bought it just because it was the tribal custom. Thorsten is spot on in this case, the M11 is not like a Nikon F3, or a Leica M6, or to my mind an M9. And this is how Leica development tends to go nowadays with the M line, it's hard to see a true classic coming along anytime soon. I agree that the M9 is a classic for reasons you’ve stated and also that it has withstood the test of time. Every digital M makes fantastic photos because Leica takes their sensors very seriously and enjoy tweaking the color science for each generation. We may argue the finer points of each sensor but at least they give us something to argue about. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Advertisement Posted March 1, 2022 Posted March 1, 2022 Hi Kwesi, Take a look here Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic. I'm sure you'll find what you were looking for!
LocalHero1953 Posted March 1, 2022 Share #162 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) And yet for some (me!) the M9 was not a classic but a halfway house to something better. I didn't like the images - unsatisfactory garish colours: noisy: embarrassing LCD. It just shows, declaring a classic is a subjective statement - and there's nothing wrong with that. Edited March 1, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 1, 2022 Share #163 Posted March 1, 2022 Ultimately, my definition of classic equipment also includes that it works. Therefore I don't trust any electronic object to mature into a classic because of its low durability. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 1, 2022 Share #164 Posted March 1, 2022 7 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said: And yet for some (me!) the M9 was not a classic but a halfway house to something better. I didn't like the images - unsatisfactory garish colours: noisy: embarrassing LCD. It just shows, declaring a classic is a subjective statement - and there's nothing wrong with that. Which film M was a 'classic'? Based upon picture quality there is nothing to differentiate them so I'm not sure its about the images they create but more about their status in the grand scheme of models. For me the M9 is a 'classic' simply because it was the first capable, full frame M camera and it brought the M into the digital era without fundamemtal compromises. I liked my M8s but IMO they struggled to compete with full frame and that is what the M is and was so I don't see the M8 as a 'classic' because of the format compromise. FWIW audiophiles have 'classic' equipment despite it ALL being electronic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LocalHero1953 Posted March 1, 2022 Share #165 Posted March 1, 2022 (edited) TBH I'm not in the business of declaring classics - I was just responding to the comment that the M9 is a classic because of the images. Which points up why digital cameras are not just film cameras gone digital: the sensor is an integral part of digital cameras, but not film cameras. Edited March 1, 2022 by LocalHero1953 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted March 1, 2022 Share #166 Posted March 1, 2022 I think we can all agree that no camera is declared a classic at birth. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Overgaard Posted March 1, 2022 Share #167 Posted March 1, 2022 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, Kwesi said: I think we can all agree that no camera is declared a classic at birth. Yes, let's stay with that 🙂 I'll take note. 3 1 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnFM Posted March 1, 2022 Share #168 Posted March 1, 2022 It's hard to say whether any M from this point forward will be regarded as a classic. The amazing thing to me is that Leica and its M are still around, used, and much loved. I stupidly sold my beautiful black paint MP because I thought the world had passed it by and Leica was at risk in the digital revolution. Yet Leica film and digital cameras are still much appreciated. Maybe we should just agree that the Leica M is a classic that has lasted much longer than many would have thought. By the way, I still love my R6 and R8. They are classics to only me and a few others 😉 6 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mkur Posted March 2, 2022 Share #169 Posted March 2, 2022 As mentioned in other threads the M11 gives off strong M5 vibes. It is really a nice camera, the image quality is stellar, but something feels not right about it. Not a likely future classic, but only time will tell. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwesi Posted March 2, 2022 Share #170 Posted March 2, 2022 The M11 couldn’t be more different from the M5 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 2, 2022 Share #171 Posted March 2, 2022 If we don't know what a classic is we do know what it is not: a reportage camera needing a tripod. Nothing personal i've just ordered one. 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hdmesa Posted March 2, 2022 Share #172 Posted March 2, 2022 3 hours ago, lct said: If we don't know what a classic is we do know what it is not: a reportage camera needing a tripod. Nothing personal i've just ordered one. A higher shutter speed is much lighter and easier to carry around 😎👍 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
raizans Posted March 2, 2022 Share #173 Posted March 2, 2022 No camera is perfect, not even a classic. The M11 could become a classic despite the absence of a global shutter. Also, the M5 is a classic. 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lct Posted March 2, 2022 Share #174 Posted March 2, 2022 29 minutes ago, hdmesa said: A higher shutter speed is much lighter and easier to carry around 😎👍 Sure but what about DoF then? I prefer shooting the same way with all my cameras but the M11's 36MP or at least 18MP should do it for me. Otherwise i won't keep it but i'm not really concerned about this. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
leicavkk Posted March 2, 2022 Author Share #175 Posted March 2, 2022 (edited) I think the M11 is going to be a classic because after all the negative user feedback the M12 will have 2 not one 1 baseplate, making it even harder to get to the battery and sd card, battery life will be shortened a great deal, and the camera will only support SD cards up to 1GB to approximate the frequent changes that film shooters have, no in body memory will provided, the older meters will be put back in so that collapsible lenses can't work and High ISO performance will be reduced to approximate film. Leica will also ensure the EVFs don't work with the new camera., And to a point raised earlier, the M5 is considered a classic by some. Sherry Krauter thinks it's the best film M ever produced. Edited March 2, 2022 by leicavkk 3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted March 2, 2022 Share #176 Posted March 2, 2022 On 3/1/2022 at 12:07 PM, pgk said: Which film M was a 'classic'? What is 'a classic', Paul ? Is it something/someone that speaks or understands Latin or Greek and might get used in or get admission to a university Classics Department? The related word 'classical' is usually applied to something that is well established and well thought of and forms part of a defined tradition or historical stream. Relating this concept back to Leica cameras, you could perhaps say that all film Ms are so-called 'classics' and some digital models may become 'classics' over time. If I were pushed to select one or two M camera 'classics' they would be the M3 and M6, but that would be a personal choice. The word 'camera' comes from the Latin words 'camera obscura' which means 'dark room or chamber'. So in a way, all cameras are 'classics' of a kind with their Latin nomenclature. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
pgk Posted March 2, 2022 Share #177 Posted March 2, 2022 20 minutes ago, willeica said: What is 'a classic', Paul? Difficult to define. Classic cars are pretty well sorted out and perhaps its easier to determine cars which haven't become classics af which BL made quite a number😉. We could say the same of cameras. For most people the M5 isn't a 'classic' for example, and whilst the M3, M4 and M6 might well be thought of as 'classics' for different reasons, I don't think that either the M4-2 or M4-P would be considered as such (the M2 might be but not the M1 and I'm not sure that the M7 is/will be). As I've stated though its not necessarily an easy designation and it is very subjective and, to be at all valid, there has to be a significant proportion of those interested in suggesting such status in favour of something being classed as a 'classic'. And at the end of the day its an informal designation too. I do think though that the word was used at the beginning of this thread to suggest that the features of the M11 do not integrate as seamlessly as might be desirable, and in the same way that the M5 offered progress, in itself higher specification and progress (and even better image 'quality') are not guarantees that a camera is a better tool nor that it will be well thought of now, or in the future, as other, previous models are. As I have said before, to me the M11 appears to be an EVF camera with a rangefinder rather than a rangefinder camera with additional features. So I cannot see it being regarded as a classic, but this will depend on what follows and whether it will be a better integrated or even return to being a pure rangefinder. Only time will tell. 4 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fil-m Posted March 3, 2022 Share #178 Posted March 3, 2022 Probably the weirdest thread I've read to understand what is the issue with M11... Just took my M11 for street shots and the whole experience is amazing, using the mechanical shutter, the viewfinder and only a few times the live view of the camera. Better (for me) than the M 240 in terms of ergonomics, slimmer body, weight (black version). I don't see any issue with the new metering/shutter mechanism in terms of experience. The produced files are amazing and the battery life great. Maybe there is an issue bug in a "laboratory" setting when trying to fire multiple shots at once (if I properly understood the video which triggered this tread), but at least for me it does not apply in real life conditions, as I am not firing 10 street shots in a row to pick the best one... With digital devices, it is almost impossible not to find bugs/limitations when trying to create some extreme cases. Anyway, too soon to imagine what would be a "classic" or not, just enjoy the camera as each M model is different/unique and has its followers as well as those who don't like it! 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M11 for me Posted March 3, 2022 Share #179 Posted March 3, 2022 vor 17 Stunden schrieb hdmesa: A higher shutter speed is much lighter and easier to carry around 😎👍 That is not the concept of a tripod. It serves another purpose. Of course you can use one if longer shutter speeds are needed. But that is not what I use it for in first place. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 3, 2022 Share #180 Posted March 3, 2022 (edited) 10 hours ago, pgk said: As I have said before, to me the M11 appears to be an EVF camera with a rangefinder rather than a rangefinder camera with additional features. So I cannot see it being regarded as a classic, but this will depend on what follows and whether it will be a better integrated or even return to being a pure rangefinder. Only time will tell. ".....an EVF camera with a rangefinder", I think this is well said Paul, not that it matters anyway, however it's labelled. The nub is does the camera work for you or not? If it does on more positive than negative points then all well and good, if not well there's plenty of other choices including previous models of the M to go to. As to whether this camera or another is a "Classic", who the hell cares? The stuff has to work, work well and suit the way one wants to make images without too many annoyances, it shouldn't "get in the way" but if it does then switch it out for something that does float the boat better for you. No new camera is going to make one a better photographer, that's either there or it's not. Experience, working at it with whatever you choose to use as gear, does help though, a lot............ Otherwise new stuff is a distraction. Edited March 3, 2022 by petermullett Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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