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Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic


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36 minutes ago, harmen said:

I enjoy this conversation on limitations too.  How about putting it this way.  Certain limitations are limitations in available capability, mostly due to technology or physics.  ... Other limitations are a choice.  Manual focus is a choice.  It doesn’t really matter why one would choose it or how it compares to autofocus; it’s simply a choice.  A few aspects fall in between, where a chosen limitation causes a technical limitation.  IBIS is an example.  Many would welcome it, but few would want a larger camera body.

 

Well put. Leica lenses are the same - they make excellent lenses, technological marvels, but they are not necessarily the best lenses in the world... just the best for their size.  So while I might wish for some improvements here and there, I don't want these improvements at the expense of the small size. I definitely don't want my Leica lenses to be as big as a Sony prime, but 95% of the performance at only a fraction of the size is a good compromise. 

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7 hours ago, trickness said:

Having watched the video, it seem Overgaard is implying that to be a “classic” a camera needs to have limitations. It’s funny, but my friends who are really into vinyl records, or who will only shoot film, have the same philosophy, that the only real experience must have some degree of minimalism which often/always also is challenging, inconvenient, or just plain difficult.

 

With classic I mean the camera models that people consistently will go back to and want to keep. The Leica M9 is a good example, the Leica M3, the 35mm "king of bokeh" which does not mean they are great technically ... but they are lovable.

I do think they often tend to be simple when we talk Leica. Not perfect.

Then there are different opinions. Some actually love the Leica M5, so for them that is a classic. Some love the M240 and will want to keep it forever, so for them it's a classic. 

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On 2/24/2022 at 10:44 AM, IkarusJohn said:

I disagree with his starting premise - everyone wants a silent shutter and everyone should use the electronic shutter, except in artificial light and with movement.  I rather like the shutter on my M-A and M10-D (not so much the M9 based Monochrom).  I don’t think electronic shutters are a good substitute for leaf or focal plane shutters til the global shutter sensor has been cracked.  Interestingly, focal plane shutters have largely eliminated rolling shutter, even though the gap in the two curtains travels across the frame.

Interesting to note that the Nikon Z9 has “only” 45MP … It’s only real claim to fame is that it has dispensed with the mechanical shutter altogether, but it’s not relevant to discussions of global shutters.

Perhaps the future M line could be (1) a “purist”, cheaper camera with mechanical shutter and the return of the shutter curtain meter; (2) a premium, all singing all dancing global shutter based camera with EVF and video, no mechnical shutter or optical rangefinder; and (3) a combined (confused?) mix of mechanical and global shutter like the current M11.  The M12-M and M12-D could then be variants …

I do suspect we might be heading into new territory.

PS - I see we’re back to Thorsten Overgaard.  Did the claim to aristocracy (“von” Overgaard) depart with the Princess and the elephant skin bag?

“PS - I see we’re back to Thorsten Overgaard.  Did the claim to aristocracy (“von” Overgaard) depart with the Princess and the elephant skin bag?” I have unsubscribe from his post some years ago, the elephant skin bags was the last straw…….

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52 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

With classic I mean the camera models that people consistently will go back to and want to keep. The Leica M9 is a good example, the Leica M3, the 35mm "king of bokeh" which does not mean they are great technically ... but they are lovable.

I do think they often tend to be simple when we talk Leica. Not perfect.

Then there are different opinions. Some actually love the Leica M5, so for them that is a classic. Some love the M240 and will want to keep it forever, so for them it's a classic. 

The M11 has been out a few weeks. Isn’t it a bit premature to define it as classic/not classic?

Such labels are arbitrary in most cases anyway.

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4 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

To whom are you refering? Hard for those people to modify their behaviour if they don't know who they are.

Gordon

In this specific thread it is one person and based in the many posts I have read from him (he is rather active), I doubt he would modify his behavior.
 

not sure if it is wise to go name calling here in this thread, so that’s why I don’t.

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More megapixels do not make a good camera. You should think about where this leads. At some point, it will no longer make sense with the small format. 

Perhaps Leica should also give itself over to medium format.....

The classics are the analogs. But not the digital ones. Maybe the M8. 

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A classic is an outstanding example of a particular style; something of lasting worth or with a timeless quality; of the first or highest quality, class, or rank – something that exemplifies its class. 

Right now, the M11, the only rangefinder with an electronic shutter and a triple resolution 60 MP sensor, is a classic, just like the M9 (first full frame) and the M240 (first with video).

In a 100 years, it may well be the M31, the first pocketable self-charging large format rangefinder with a 1TP sensor.

 

Edited by rramesh
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10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

What's wrong with the mechanical shutter? It sounds slightly different to the M10R/P/M but it's operation is essentially identical. Compared to the M10P/R/M the difference is 1/100th of a second (measured shutter lag) which makes it faster than the M240, M9 and M8. It's also much quieter than the M10, M240, M9 and M8. I have no figures on the film M's but it's likely faster than an M3...

The M11 has some issues that need addressing. Mostly firmware related and inconsistant user experiences. The shutter isn't one of them.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

I think the issue Thorsten was referring to the most, was that sometimes the camera does not trigger the manual shutter when taking a series of shots which drives him to  use the electronic shutter for all situations other than in artificial light (to avoid banding) as well as moving objects. 

As I tend to take single shots rather than a series I think Hybrid is the ‘set and leave’ setting. 
 

Maybe future firmware releases will improve the mechanical shutter. 
 

I am looking forward to the next instalment when I think he is going to share the images he achieves with it. Certainly the images he has posted from his M11 here are eye catchingly good. 
 

I have played with the M11 and found the files to be quite different to those produced by my SL2 even when using M lens on it.  Overall I am very impressed with the the files (although I did have to find the purple fringing slider for the first time) and, for how I currently take photos, I did not find it a compromise or complicated. 
 

elephant skin bag 😞 I was unaware. 

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I suppose that I see the limitations of the M camera as being those things which have lasted, been shown to be useful on a rangefinder camera and which do not detract from it being a rangefinder camera. So manual focus and the rangefinder are prerequisites. After that I would argue that any modification which benefits the camera must support it.

So I would have no problem with higher ISO capability, better dynamic range capture, electronis shutter and so on, but I do think that EVF, Live View, video, etc., are departing from 'concept'. They are all inferior to the same features offered by other cameras.

Yes, I know that there are those who want an EVF camera which is 'tuned' to M lenses - this is a minefield in itself (which lenses?) and whilst I don't see the attraction, as a seperate camera that's fine if there are enough buyers. But the M needs to come 'back to concept' rather than be bloated with gizmos because it can be IMO. I'd agree that the M11 is too much of a compromise to become a 'classic' although no doubt some will think otherwise. Only time will tell. [As an aside, there have been comments about digital equipment not being able to be thought of as 'classics' which, given that in the audiophile world everything is electronic and 'classic' equipment still exists, strikes me as odd.]

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57 minutes ago, Sjz said:

Hi Gordon,

I think the issue Thorsten was referring to the most, was that sometimes the camera does not trigger the manual shutter when taking a series of shots which drives him to  use the electronic shutter for all situations other than in artificial light (to avoid banding) as well as moving objects. 

As I tend to take single shots rather than a series I think Hybrid is the ‘set and leave’ setting. 
 

Maybe future firmware releases will improve the mechanical shutter. 
 

I am looking forward to the next instalment when I think he is going to share the images he achieves with it. Certainly the images he has posted from his M11 here are eye catchingly good. 
 

I have played with the M11 and found the files to be quite different to those produced by my SL2 even when using M lens on it.  Overall I am very impressed with the the files (although I did have to find the purple fringing slider for the first time) and, for how I currently take photos, I did not find it a compromise or complicated. 
 

elephant skin bag 😞 I was unaware. 

I have heard some are having issues and I'm not dismissing them. I'm just not having them. I can shoot pretty much as fast as I can press the shutter without issue. Mechanical or electronic. There do seem to be some inconsistancies in the user experience for the M11, Leica will need to address.

Gordon

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1 hour ago, harmen said:

Please note that with Auto Review set to Off there is a significant delay before a next single exposure can be triggered.  With it set to another value, I can happily keep pressing the shutter and it always fires.

Interesting indeed. All my cameras do the opposite. Don't ask me if i consider the M11 a classic :DMay i ask if you've noticed this behavior in RF or EVF mode? With or w/o Visoflex? Just curious.

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3 hours ago, Sjz said:

I think the issue Thorsten was referring to the most, was that sometimes the camera does not trigger the manual shutter when taking a series of shots which drives him to  use the electronic shutter for all situations other than in artificial light (to avoid banding) as well as moving objects. 

As I tend to take single shots rather than a series I think Hybrid is the ‘set and leave’ setting. 
 

I shoot the same way where often I take multiple images in single mode. sometimes the 3rd press or the 4th press doesn't do anything.
It is a bug and seams software related. I am sure they can fix it. for now just changing auto review to hold will not manifest the problem.

 

🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞🐞

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10 hours ago, tsleica said:

I really think m11 sucks..why..

Its not 100mp..

And 60mp is simply..not good enough.. for my personal.. "vision"...lol..

But bottom line..Leica lost its soul..awhile ago..

Dont know exactly when..or where..but..

Its long gooone...

 

Due to overwhelming demand from l-camera-forum malcontents, word is that COOP will soon be marketing a new line of M11 Sucks and Leica Sucks hoodies and baseball caps for spring.  COOP is also collaborating with Billingham to produce a special edition M11 Sucks version of the Hadley Pro camera bag.

Edited by Herr Barnack
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56 minutes ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed. All my cameras do the opposite. Don't ask me if i consider the M11 a classic :DMay i ask if you've noticed this behavior in RF or EVF mode? With or w/o Visoflex? Just curious.

I only use RF mode and have no visoflex, but from what I’ve heard others mention it always the same bug and entirely related to the review setting.

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23 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Due to overwhelming demand from l-camera-forum malcontents, word is that COOP will soon be marketing a new line of M11 Sucks and Leica Sucks hoodies and baseball caps for spring.  COOP is also collaborating with Billingham to produce a special edition M11 Sucks version of the Hadley Pro camera bag.

This camera sucks so bad, it’s sold out everywhere!

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1 hour ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed. All my cameras do the opposite. Don't ask me if i consider the M11 a classic :DMay i ask if you've noticed this behavior in RF or EVF mode? With or w/o Visoflex? Just curious.

It is a known bug, not a “feature” of M11.

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4 hours ago, Sjz said:

Hi Gordon,

I think the issue Thorsten was referring to the most, was that sometimes the camera does not trigger the manual shutter when taking a series of shots which drives him to  use the electronic shutter for all situations other than in artificial light (to avoid banding) as well as moving objects. 

😞

There is a known bug with a known workaround with M11. There are no issues with M11’s mechanical shutter once the workaround is applied, AFAIK.

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