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Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic


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2 hours ago, SrMi said:

There is a known bug with a known workaround with M11. There are no issues with M11’s mechanical shutter once the workaround is applied, AFAIK.

The workaround being to turn auto review to anything other than ‘no’ ?   I had just cured myself of ‘chimping’ - almost.
 

I find I am still in the ‘don’t do anything that is not necessary if it uses battery’ mode M10 default way of working. I need to do relearn. 
 

In short, that workaround changes things to Hybrid ‘set and forget’ for everyone, removing complexity and adding an additional degree of simplification over the 10?   (Although - that extra simplification is quite a narrow set of parameters.  I still hit the shutter speed limit of 1/4000 when using a Sumilux outdoors - so one advantage (not needing ND) is a sad face for me).

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20 minutes ago, Sjz said:

The workaround being to turn auto review to anything other than ‘no’ ?   I had just cured myself of ‘chimping’ - almost.

Yes, set it to other than "Off."
My setting is "Auto Review>Shutter button pressed," which for all practical purposes is the same as "Off" (no 'chimping'). But, again, this is not by design but because of a firmware bug.
Do you still think that "the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable"?

26 minutes ago, Sjz said:

I find I am still in the ‘don’t do anything that is not necessary if it uses battery’ mode M10 default way of working. I need to do relearn. 

In RF mode, the increase in battery use  because of the new metering is minimal. The camera is not in live view all the time.

30 minutes ago, Sjz said:

In short, that workaround changes things to Hybrid ‘set and forget’ for everyone, removing complexity and adding an additional degree of simplification over the 10?   (Although - that extra simplification is quite a narrow set of parameters.  I still hit the shutter speed limit of 1/4000 when using a Sumilux outdoors - so one advantage (not needing ND) is a sad face for me).

The primary source of increased complexity with M11 is knowing the initial bugs and the workarounds. This complexity will disappear with the next firmware update.

One source of complexity with previous digital M cameras is the metering setting. One must know that the setting doesn't do anything in RF mode, and that metering can suddenly change in LV mode.

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1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Yes, set it to other than "Off."
My setting is "Auto Review>Shutter button pressed," which for all practical purposes is the same as "Off" (no 'chimping'). But, again, this is not by design but because of a firmware bug.
Do you still think that "the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable"?

In RF mode, the increase in battery use  because of the new metering is minimal. The camera is not in live view all the time.

The primary source of increased complexity with M11 is knowing the initial bugs and the workarounds. This complexity will disappear with the next firmware update.

One source of complexity with previous digital M cameras is the metering setting. One must know that the setting doesn't do anything in RF mode, and that metering can suddenly change in LV mode.

Hi, thank you for your advice..

It appears I did not make myself clear, in fact I somehow gave you the opposite impression.

1. As I don’t take a series of photos putting it in Hybrid works for me, however I will take it off ‘no’ for review should I want to take a series.  Not sure how what I wrote could be interpreted as me saying the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable, for me it has been totally acceptable. 

2. I only use RF - I have some unusual mis-metering which I put down to ‘learning the camera’.  Suspect user error as opposed to anything else.

Anyway, once again thank you for the advice.

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21 minutes ago, Sjz said:

Hi, thank you for your advice..

It appears I did not make myself clear, in fact I somehow gave you the opposite impression.

1. As I don’t take a series of photos putting it in Hybrid works for me, however I will take it off ‘no’ for review should I want to take a series.  Not sure how what I wrote could be interpreted as me saying the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable, for me it has been totally acceptable. 

2. I only use RF - I have some unusual mis-metering which I put down to ‘learning the camera’.  Suspect user error as opposed to anything else.

Anyway, once again thank you for the advice.

I profoundly apologize! I confused you with @Mr.Prime:(

Cheers,

- Srdjan

 

 

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I just tried to go through this thread. Its rather chaotic. And I wonder what is more complicated with the M11 than with M10. For me the M11 is just the better choice. The metering is a delight and the sensor rendering is much better than M10 (just look at the colors). When I look at my photographs (DNG) in LR I am just thrilled. And who at all should bother about e-shutter or hybrid shutter or whatever. Just leave it on the default setting as it is when you start the camera for the first time. This is perfect unless you are a bit more technically minded as I certaily am. Further I see that many here do not own the M11. For those this negative thread is honey on their bread. 

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4 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes, set it to other than "Off."
My setting is "Auto Review>Shutter button pressed," which for all practical purposes is the same as "Off" (no 'chimping'). But, again, this is not by design but because of a firmware bug.
Do you still think that "the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable"?

In RF mode, the increase in battery use  because of the new metering is minimal. The camera is not in live view all the time.

The primary source of increased complexity with M11 is knowing the initial bugs and the workarounds. This complexity will disappear with the next firmware update.

One source of complexity with previous digital M cameras is the metering setting. One must know that the setting doesn't do anything in RF mode, and that metering can suddenly change in LV mode.

Well there you go. I have it set to shutter buttone pressed and hadn't even noticed I had set it there. That explains why I've not seen this bug.

Thanks!

I am really noticing the VAST improvement in battery life. I carried a spare with my M10 variants and never felt the need to complain. They're small after all and have great capacity for their size. With the M11 I am still waiting for my second battery and EVF to arrive and I'm starting to wonder if I need it. Battery life on the RF seems to be forever. I will take it of course for travel and in case there's an issue with one of the batteries. From being ambivalent about it the new battery, it's fast becoming one of my favourite upgrades. And I don't think I've needed the charger yet. That USBC port is fabulous.

I do wish Leica would have considered putting a USBC cable with a right angle plug in the box. I have several and it makes charging via the camera much more convenient than having the camera balance on the lens cap. Those that don't have one should get one off Amazon. But Leica should think about it in the next cycle.

Gordon

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2 hours ago, Sjz said:

Hi, thank you for your advice..

It appears I did not make myself clear, in fact I somehow gave you the opposite impression.

1. As I don’t take a series of photos putting it in Hybrid works for me, however I will take it off ‘no’ for review should I want to take a series.  Not sure how what I wrote could be interpreted as me saying the mechanical shutter is completely unacceptable, for me it has been totally acceptable. 

2. I only use RF - I have some unusual mis-metering which I put down to ‘learning the camera’.  Suspect user error as opposed to anything else.

Anyway, once again thank you for the advice.

Similarly, I took SrMi’s advice and put the auto review on Shutter Button pressed and it works fine - able to take as many shots sequentially as I want to. 

I’m still getting used to the camera, mainly unlearning an approach formed by years of being lazy using autofocus and IBIS. With my Q2 I often had the shutter set to Continuous Low but more often than not only shot one frame using a gentle press of the shutter button. Can’t seem to do that on the M11 - a single press fires off 2-3 frames. I probably just need to be more gentle!

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Of course most of those who bought into the M11 are going to profess abiding undying love and enthusiasm for the new camera and the other previous M girlfriends just don't cut it anymore. Why wouldn't they be enraptured? There's $9K reasons to do so for the kick-off..........And I for one having not handled or used the camera am not in a position to offer any criticism beyond assessing the features and opinions offered here and in other places then deciding whether they would be enough for me to try to cobble together the money to step up from where I am in the M system, ( M10-R, M10-M, M10-D and a couple or so of film M's too ), and going by what I have learned so far there's no "there" there that for me justifies that move.

The images and usage of the M11 posted on-line, ( ok I know that's not the best to judge the quality ), say nothing to me that's positive either, most posted here could have, should have, been made quite comfortably with a simple P&S camera, of which there are some truly excellent choices out there these days..............Way cheaper too, but yes I know with Leica that's not the point, right?

However I do think that the "Von's" opinions must carry some weight, he is a serious, professional photographer who has a long history with the M marque and it is I think worth listening to him droning on, hard though that can be at times. Certainly what he says would give me pause if I was seriously considering the M11 at this time, I am not so I guess that's moot........But anyway his opinions come from a point of much greater use and experience than many of the posters here, he also deeply appreciates the M system so that's another validity of note, he also bought the camera himself so he owes no allegiance..........there's another plus point. That he finds that the camera may not be a "classic" is neither here nor there for me, a camera like any other tool either works for you or it doesn't and we all have differing "needs", I do though concur with him that maybe the M11 offers too much, tries to do too much, but then as said I haven't used one myself yet, so I'll zip on that, for now.

Edited by petermullett
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There is a thing to consider that can't seem to see addressed by Thorsten and other posters here i.e. the own sharpness of the sensor. DNG files out of the M11 remind me somewhat of my Kolari mod Sony or Leica M8.2 from this viewpoint. I have no idea where it comes from, perhaps an "ultra thin" sensor stack a la Kolari, or it's just me, but i seem to retrieve the acutance i like on the "classic" M8.2, at 18MP and 36MP of the M11 at least. Didn't check at 60MP i'm not interested in.

Edited by lct
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1 hour ago, petermullett said:

Of course most of those who bought into the M11 are going to profess abiding undying love and enthusiasm for the new camera and the other previous M girlfriends just don't cut it anymore. Why wouldn't they be enraptured? There's $9K reasons to do so for the kick-off..........And I for one having not handled or used the camera am not in a position to offer any criticism beyond assessing the features and opinions offered here and in other places then deciding whether they would be enough for me to try to cobble together the money to step up from where I am in the M system, ( M10-R, M10-M, M10-D and a couple or so of film M's too ), and going by what I have learned so far there's no "there" there that for me justifies that move.

The images and usage of the M11 posted on-line, ( ok I know that's not the best to judge the quality ), say nothing to me that's positive either, most posted here could have, should have, been made quite comfortably with a simple P&S camera, of which there are some truly excellent choices out there these days..............Way cheaper too, but yes I know with Leica that's not the point, right?

However I do think that the "Von's" opinions must carry some weight, he is a serious, professional photographer who has a long history with the M marque and it is I think worth listening to him droning on, hard though that can be at times. Certainly what he says would give me pause if I was seriously considering the M11 at this time, I am not so I guess that's moot........But anyway his opinions come from a point of much greater use and experience than many of the posters here, he also deeply appreciates the M system so that's another validity of note, he also bought the camera himself so he owes no allegiance..........there's another plus point. That he finds that the camera may not be a "classic" is neither here nor there for me, a camera like any other tool either works for you or it doesn't and we all have differing "needs", I do though concur with him that maybe the M11 offers too much, tries to do too much, but then as said I haven't used one myself yet, so I'll zip on that, for now.

In an ideal world, everybody’s opinions would be cross referenced with their photographic output and then weighed for validity. Just because someone has used a particular brand of camera for a long time or presents themselves as “professional” (whatever that means), it doesn’t mean they’ve snapped a single frame that’s worth looking at.

I meet kids in Washington Square Park every week whose photographic work craps all over 99% of the photographers who post here, mine included. The work is the ONLY thing that matters in the end. All this other YouTuber babble is little more than self promotion in a gaseous form. A great photographer will make good work with whatever tools they have.

Edited by trickness
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14 minutes ago, trickness said:

In an ideal world, everybody’s opinions would be cross referenced with their photographic output and then weighed for validity. Just because someone has used a particular brand of camera for a long time or presents themselves as “professional” (whatever that means), it doesn’t mean they’ve snapped a single frame that’s worth looking at.

I meet kids in Washington Square Park every week whose photographic work craps all over 99% of the photographers who post here, mine included. The work is the ONLY thing that matters in the end. All this other YouTuber babble is little more than self promotion in a gaseous form.

Hear, hear. 

 

 

Edited by Herr Barnack
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1 hour ago, trickness said:

In an ideal world, everybody’s opinions would be cross referenced with their photographic output and then weighed for validity. Just because someone has used a particular brand of camera for a long time or presents themselves as “professional” (whatever that means), it doesn’t mean they’ve snapped a single frame that’s worth looking at.

I meet kids in Washington Square Park every week whose photographic work craps all over 99% of the photographers who post here, mine included. The work is the ONLY thing that matters in the end. All this other YouTuber babble is little more than self promotion in a gaseous form. A great photographer will make good work with whatever tools they have.

Seriously? Come on, let's have some valid discussion. I know that I neither need nor want an M11 based on its features and specification. My problem is that Leica don't make a current M model that I do need or want; and my photographic output is entirely irrelevant in this regard.

And 'professional' generally means someone who makes the bulk (majority) of their living from an activity.

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