Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic

[pgk]

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From the threads on the forum I would say that the M11 is the most divisive digital M so far produced. Historically, divisive equipment (the M5 comes to mind) does not tend to attain 'classic' status although there will be adherents. We won't know about 'classic' status for a few decades though ...... and even then its a fairly amorphous designation at best.

[LocalHero1953]

32 minutes ago, pgk said:

From the threads on the forum I would say that the M11 is the most divisive digital M so far produced. Historically, divisive equipment (the M5 comes to mind) does not tend to attain 'classic' status although there will be adherents. We won't know about 'classic' status for a few decades though ...... and even then its a fairly amorphous designation at best.

I agree. I went through the M240 and M10 launches. There were problems with the M240 (availability, freezing) that took a while to get sorted, but I don't recall grumbles about size and video gathering momentum till much later in its lifecycle. The M10 was greeted with near universal enthusiasm (not by me: no electronic shutter🙂).

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[lct]

IBIS aside, those who advocated a modern RF-M can hardly complain at least. For the rest of us, the M10 remains the best "what's not to like" RF camera.

[erudolph]

Given the shorter longevity in use of a digital camera, relative to a film camera, the word classic seems.... what?   Does it refer to adherence to some ideal.  It doesn't seem to mean the camera will be in use decades from now, does it?

[Overgaard]

20 hours ago, trickness said:

Agree with most everything you say.

But I'll repeat the same thing I said in my reply to Torsten - the M11 has been out for a month. Isn't it a little early to be nailing the coffin shut? Or defining how it will be viewed long term?

It's well known that (in general) slagging something off gets more clicks on social media than positivity.

I don't find these two thoughts to be mutually exclusive.

 

 

 

I see the headline of this thread (and I didn't make that one). I made a video on "electronic vs mechanical shutter" which is not exactly a click-bait headline, and in that I (also) classify this model as "not going to be a classic" and comparing it to the M240 and M5 in that regard. Implying that it will have to be refined in future model versions to be perfect. You could say my opinion is that the M11 is a stepping stone to something else. 

When you nail it, you get a Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Hasselblad 500, or a Leica M3 or Leica M6. Or a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean that Leica M7 isn't a nice camera, it's just not the same essential model as the M6 or M3. Same for M11, won't be a reference point in the model history. 

Edited February 28, 2022 by Overgaard

[trickness]

12 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

I see the headline of this thread (and I didn't make that one). I made a video on "electronic vs mechanical shutter" which is not exactly a click-bait headline, and in that I (also) classify this model as "not going to be a classic" and comparing it to the M240 and M5 in that regard. Implying that it will have to be refined in future model versions to be perfect. You could say my opinion is that the M11 is a stepping stone to something else. 

When you nail it, you get a Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Hasselblad 500, or a Leica M3 or Leica M6. Or a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean that Leica M7 isn't a nice camera, it's just not the same essential model as the M6 or M3. Same for M11, won't be a reference point in the model history. 

I think making a comment like this camera isn’t going to be a classic is a very bold and in my opinion premature statement. Totally understand that you did not necessarily intend that to be the only take away from your video.

But also… hasn’t really the entire history of the M been about refinement? People may have their personal preferences but have they ever really made the PERFECT camera for every photographer? Such a thing is impossible.

[pgk]

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1 minute ago, trickness said:

But also… hasn’t really the entire history of the M been about refinement?

Absolutely - as the Visoflex illustrated only too well😉. Of course some 'refinements' do prove to be dead ends as the M5 illustrated. I'm intrigued to know how it will be possible to 'refine' and EVF camera with a rangefinder fitted when extremely good AF EVF cameras are available at substantiallly lower cost. Time will tell whether the M11 is a progression, a classic or just a dead end.

[JohnFM]

Since I have too many hobbies, I often think about how something becomes a 'classic'.  It may come down to two things that are related but different.

The first is good design.  Overgaard is onto something when he mentions simplicity -- not so much that the product is simple but that we clearly understand its purpose and function.  At the risk of controversy, examples include the Rolex Submariner, Montblanc fountain pen (or ballpoint), Chris Reeve Sebenza, Steinway piano, and Apple iPhone.  In each case, the inherent design was recognized early on by knowledgeable and experienced users as good in terms of form and function.

The second is broader acceptance.  Some of this will come through the same appreciation of attributes that early adopters identified.  And some of it will come over time because the product has sold enough to create a 'buzz' of cool desirability and appeal.  What's often lost on this latter group of buyers is that the product was good to begin with -- it had a unique mix of qualities (aesthetic, functional, or otherwise) that attracted the knowledgeable user.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, Overgaard said:

I see the headline of this thread (and I didn't make that one). I made a video on "electronic vs mechanical shutter" which is not exactly a click-bait headline, and in that I (also) classify this model as "not going to be a classic" and comparing it to the M240 and M5 in that regard. Implying that it will have to be refined in future model versions to be perfect. You could say my opinion is that the M11 is a stepping stone to something else. 

When you nail it, you get a Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Hasselblad 500, or a Leica M3 or Leica M6. Or a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean that Leica M7 isn't a nice camera, it's just not the same essential model as the M6 or M3. Same for M11, won't be a reference point in the model history. 

Fair enough. I will not debate that some (not all) older 911s are amazing. But - many of those have oil leaks etc. -- require a lot of tender love and care. At the end of the day, those become weekend or showcase cars. And the lazy people just buy a 992.

Same story with the M11: Without some of the new creature comforts, I would be much less likely to "always wear my Leica" (quoting some Danish dude). Issues that will not be missed (vs. M10) include range finder that is constantly misaligned (optimistic speculation about M11, not yet proven), unstable and painfully slow connection to my mobile Apple devices, stupid "sunken" ISO dial (M11 workaround to remap one of the function keys).

I am looking forward to finally receiving my M11 (ordered silver, still waiting). M10-P will not be missed once I get it.

[jdlaing]

Maybe if the M-11 had been covered in elephant skin Overgaard would have been more enthusiastic.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Overgaard said:

I see the headline of this thread (and I didn't make that one). I made a video on "electronic vs mechanical shutter" which is not exactly a click-bait headline, and in that I (also) classify this model as "not going to be a classic" and comparing it to the M240 and M5 in that regard. Implying that it will have to be refined in future model versions to be perfect. You could say my opinion is that the M11 is a stepping stone to something else. 

When you nail it, you get a Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Hasselblad 500, or a Leica M3 or Leica M6. Or a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean that Leica M7 isn't a nice camera, it's just not the same essential model as the M6 or M3. Same for M11, won't be a reference point in the model history. 

What is the consequence of a camera being or not being a classic?

Edited February 28, 2022 by SrMi

[lct]

Second hand prices might drop more or less if the M12 comes with IBIS but the M11 will remain the first Leica M with electronic shutter and adjustable resolution. So classic i don't know but historic it should be from this stand point. 

[Kwesi]

3 hours ago, Overgaard said:

I see the headline of this thread (and I didn't make that one). I made a video on "electronic vs mechanical shutter" which is not exactly a click-bait headline, and in that I (also) classify this model as "not going to be a classic" and comparing it to the M240 and M5 in that regard. Implying that it will have to be refined in future model versions to be perfect. You could say my opinion is that the M11 is a stepping stone to something else. 

When you nail it, you get a Nikon F3 or Canon A1 or Hasselblad 500, or a Leica M3 or Leica M6. Or a Porsche 911. Doesn't mean that Leica M7 isn't a nice camera, it's just not the same essential model as the M6 or M3. Same for M11, won't be a reference point in the model history. 

Im not sure your argument holds water.

if the M9 is a classic based on the fact that it was the first and only one of its kind, the the M240 and M5 should also be a classic given that they also are the first and only of their kind.

Or am I missing something here? - I watched the video but quite frankly I think your analysis (electronic vs mechanical shutter) would have been better delivered if you had left the idea of what makes a camera a classic for another day.

[orcinus]

7 hours ago, erudolph said:

Given the shorter longevity in use of a digital camera, relative to a film camera, the word classic seems.... what?   Does it refer to adherence to some ideal.  It doesn't seem to mean the camera will be in use decades from now, does it?

I take it to mean "prized for ineffable, unquantifiable qualities" vs. actual capabilities

[pgk]

A 'classic' version of anything will epitomise the qualities of the equipment within its technological progress at the time it was built. The mere addition of features may actually detract from something rather than enhance it and later versions may not epitomise anything. As it is a subjective description it will always be arguable as to whether it is deserved or not. When a majority accept the description it is probably correct.

[idusidusi]

18 hours ago, erudolph said:

Given the shorter longevity in use of a digital camera, relative to a film camera, the word classic seems.... what?   Does it refer to adherence to some ideal.  It doesn't seem to mean the camera will be in use decades from now, does it?

That is a very good point. In my own view I regard anything electronic as not being a thing that the term 'classic' applies. With digital cameras it is even more complex, revolving around the sensor I believe and the MP. Would I regard the Digilux 1 from 2002 now as a classic? Perhaps but I don't think there are very many still in use today, I may be wrong.

[jaapv]

But plenty of Digilux 2 and M8, both from the first decade of this century. Especially the M8 will be in active use many years into the future.

[jaapv]

16 hours ago, mzbe said:

include range finder that is constantly misaligned

None of my M cameras had that, and I have had about every model since my first M3... The"shock-proof" rangefinder was introduced with the M240.

[250swb]

12 hours ago, Kwesi said:

Im not sure your argument holds water.

if the M9 is a classic based on the fact that it was the first and only one of its kind, the the M240 and M5 should also be a classic given that they also are the first and only of their kind.

Or am I missing something here? - I watched the video but quite frankly I think your analysis (electronic vs mechanical shutter) would have been better delivered if you had left the idea of what makes a camera a classic for another day.

The M9 is a classic based on it making fantastic photos (and still does), and that it fulfilled the concept started but not finished by the M8. The M10 or M10R rationalised the concept started with the M240 but they still aren't classics. The M11 simply spread some more jam on top of jam so if you can find the element in it that will justify spending loads of money you are one of the lucky ones, but I suspect most people bought it just because it was the tribal custom. Thorsten is spot on in this case, the M11 is not like a Nikon F3, or a Leica M6, or to my mind an M9. And this is how Leica development tends to go nowadays with the M line, it's hard to see a true classic coming along anytime soon.

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[harmen]

Generally products improve with each iteration.  That some may become iconic does not necessarily imply them being better.  They have that extra desirability which may reflect in the price.  We’re talking about so many aspects here: monetary cost, an ability to retain monetary value, technical capability, uniqueness, status, etc.  Then on top of that we mix in discussions about actually wanting to buy one.  It will all get easier in time.  Once the technology is not the latest anymore.  Once it’s not about upgrading.  Once the cachet of wearing one becomes more established.  Once once once.

Edited March 1, 2022 by harmen