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Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic


leicavkk
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I watched this and can understand his view as he explained it very clearly.  I think he offers good advice for those owners of the camera who use it, or want to use it, for the same purposes he uses it for. 
 

He did say there is another video to come, the current video is about the operation of the camera. I think the next one is on the images he can create with it. 
 

 

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What Thorten suggests is pretty well what i've been doing with my EVILs since 2015 or so i.e. keeping e-shutter mode on except under artificial light or on moving subjects. I have no experience with the M11 but i have set an user profile for that on my digital CL and it works fine this way. I would have more concerns about the slowness of the M11 in LV mode and blackouts in the Visoflex then. Just a feeling for now but i hope 36 or 18MP resolution can solve the issue.

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I map a fn button for shutter type and default using E shutter for anything not moving (unless the moving subject is take significant small portion of frame).

During artificial light, If I want to use E shutter, I keep shutter at 1/10s so that no banding can be seen.

For m11, I can handhold pretty well with 1/10s at 18M.  I use SLx e shutter default and enjoy it. M11's e shutter is one of most useful features to me.  

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He makes a good point, I think; though my conclusion is the opposite - I would prefer just to use the mechanical shutter, without the permanent live view.  I don’t really understand why Leica has done this (unless it was to remove the meter off the shutter).

To my mind, the M11 is betwixt and between what will be the eventual solution.  There will be two M mount cameras - (1) the traditional coupled rangefinder with the mechanical shutter, optical viewfinder and optional EVF (an improved M10, with a new sensor, if you like), and (2) an EVF based camera, with a global shutter which eliminates banding in artifical light and rolling shutter - ie, a sensor which can capture each sensel site at the same moment (does anyone do this yet?).

For those who forget it, M means Moment …

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24 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

To my mind, the M11 is betwixt and between what will be the eventual solution.  There will be two M mount cameras - (1) the traditional coupled rangefinder with the mechanical shutter, optical viewfinder and optional EVF (an improved M10, with a new sensor, if you like), and (2) an EVF based camera, with a global shutter which eliminates banding in artifical light and rolling shutter - ie, a sensor which can capture each sensel site at the same moment (does anyone do this yet?).

For those who forget it, M means Moment …

Was my feeling as well, the M11 being a sort of bridge between those two cameras, but a less naive part in me whispers that Leica could well forget the EVF-M if the M11 proves to be a success, and concentrate on the L mount this way.

Edited by lct
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7 minutes ago, lct said:

Was my feeling as well, the M11 being a sort of bridge between those two cameras, but a less naive part in me whispers that Leica could well forget the EVF-M if the M11 proves to be a success, and concentrate on the L mount this way.

Interesting @IkarusJohn , @lct .  If that was to be the case John are you suggesting that the M could split into 2 product lines ?  It's an interesting thought

I don't like the idea of a hybrid viewfinder 

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37 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 

ie, a sensor which can capture each sensel site at the same moment (does anyone do this yet?).

 

CCD sensors as well as several CMOS sensor based cameras….

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/amp/video/tips-and-solutions/rolling-shutter-versus-global-shutter

Also, the Nikon Z9, while using a rolling shutter, claims that their technology virtually eliminates artifacts.
 

Jeff

Edited by Jeff S
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I don't have an M11 yet so my thoughts are not based on actual usage. However, while I see his point ( and certainly the mechanical shutter issue is a valid one ), and he has not finished his thesis yet, I wonder about the simplicity argument  ( or lack thereof ). I'd argue the M11 actually makes some things simpler. For instance with film you'd have to remove the baseplate and change it every 36 shots. With the M11 you may not have to with the internal storage ( so this even simpler than earlier digital cameras and film ). With the longer battery life you may not need to do anything at all.  I understand the features argument ( I always used Sony cameras and gravitated to M's - my A7R1V knows this well ).  I was thinking as posted above that maybe a function button could be used to switch between mechanical and electronic shutter. Having that option is nice. So I understand that there is a bit of complexity added in some areas, but it's also removed in some areas. But I suppose we should wait to actually hear his entire thesis.  I personally like the E-shutter and benefits it brings in metering. Having shot film and knowing the zone system I certainly know the other end of the spectrum, but I also welcome the ease it brings.  And this may be the last M camera to have both Mechanical and E shutter.

Edited by leicavkk
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40 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

He makes a good point, I think; though my conclusion is the opposite - I would prefer just to use the mechanical shutter, without the permanent live view.  I don’t really understand why Leica has done this (unless it was to remove the meter off the shutter).

To my mind, the M11 is betwixt and between what will be the eventual solution.  There will be two M mount cameras - (1) the traditional coupled rangefinder with the mechanical shutter, optical viewfinder and optional EVF (an improved M10, with a new sensor, if you like), and (2) an EVF based camera, with a global shutter which eliminates banding in artifical light and rolling shutter - ie, a sensor which can capture each sensel site at the same moment (does anyone do this yet?).

For those who forget it, M means Moment …

You can assign a button to turn live view on and off. It is not permanent.

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24 minutes ago, leicavkk said:

 I personally like the E-shutter and benefits it brings in metering. 

M11 metering benefits come from always off-the-sensor readings, not from the electronic shutter. One can be in mechanical shutter mode and still realize the metering benefits, similar to Live View mode in the M10.

Jeff

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20 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Interesting @IkarusJohn , @lct .  If that was to be the case John are you suggesting that the M could split into 2 product lines ?  It's an interesting thought

I don't like the idea of a hybrid viewfinder 

The M has been split between variants since the M9 (M9, M9-P, Monochrom), M(240) (M-P, M(262), M(246)) and M10 (M10-P, M10-M, M10-D, M10-R), so a future variant line could be M12 (mechanical) , M12-E (EVF with electronic shutter), M12-M and possibly M12-D.  Not sure what an M12-P would do, other than have black paint and traditional script ...

There is zero prospect of a hybrid viewfinder - Leica looked at this some time ago and ditched it.

20 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

CCD sensors as well as several CMOS sensor based cameras….

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/amp/video/tips-and-solutions/rolling-shutter-versus-global-shutter

Also, the Nikon Z9, while using a rolling shutter, claims that their technology virtually eliminates artifacts.
 

Jeff

Yes, I saw that article - it identifies a number of video cameras with global shutters, but my question was more narrowly aimed at stills cameras relevant to the discussion of the M11.  The Z9 doesn't seem to have a global shutter - just faster reading and writing - interesting article here.

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It may not be clear from his video, but the shutter lag is much higher with the electronic shutter than with the mechanical shutter. I was not able to follow his complaints about the mechanical shutter :).
He also says that the electronic shutter should be the dream of every Leica user and is the future. Note that the M11 is the only M camera with an electronic shutter.
I disagree with the title of this thread (negativity). Yes, he says that M11 will not be classic and that neither is 240. However, it doesn't matter, I think.

Edited by SrMi
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4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 The Z9 doesn't seem to have a global shutter - just faster reading and writing - interesting article here.

As I noted, still uses rolling shutter. Many articles and video discussions on it. 
 

Jeff

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I disagree with his starting premise - everyone wants a silent shutter and everyone should use the electronic shutter, except in artificial light and with movement.  I rather like the shutter on my M-A and M10-D (not so much the M9 based Monochrom).  I don’t think electronic shutters are a good substitute for leaf or focal plane shutters til the global shutter sensor has been cracked.  Interestingly, focal plane shutters have largely eliminated rolling shutter, even though the gap in the two curtains travels across the frame.

Interesting to note that the Nikon Z9 has “only” 45MP … It’s only real claim to fame is that it has dispensed with the mechanical shutter altogether, but it’s not relevant to discussions of global shutters.

Perhaps the future M line could be (1) a “purist”, cheaper camera with mechanical shutter and the return of the shutter curtain meter; (2) a premium, all singing all dancing global shutter based camera with EVF and video, no mechnical shutter or optical rangefinder; and (3) a combined (confused?) mix of mechanical and global shutter like the current M11.  The M12-M and M12-D could then be variants …

I do suspect we might be heading into new territory.

PS - I see we’re back to Thorsten Overgaard.  Did the claim to aristocracy (“von” Overgaard) depart with the Princess and the elephant skin bag?

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44 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

I disagree with his starting premise - everyone wants a silent shutter and everyone should use the electronic shutter, except in artificial light and with movement.  I rather like the shutter on my M-A and M10-D (not so much the M9 based Monochrom).  I don’t think electronic shutters are a good substitute for leaf or focal plane shutters til the global shutter sensor has been cracked.  Interestingly, focal plane shutters have largely eliminated rolling shutter, even though the gap in the two curtains travels across the frame.

Interesting to note that the Nikon Z9 has “only” 45MP … It’s only real claim to fame is that it has dispensed with the mechanical shutter altogether, but it’s not relevant to discussions of global shutters.

Perhaps the future M line could be (1) a “purist”, cheaper camera with mechanical shutter and the return of the shutter curtain meter; (2) a premium, all singing all dancing global shutter based camera with EVF and video, no mechnical shutter or optical rangefinder; and (3) a combined (confused?) mix of mechanical and global shutter like the current M11.  The M12-M and M12-D could then be variants …

I do suspect we might be heading into new territory.

PS - I see we’re back to Thorsten Overgaard.  Did the claim to aristocracy (“von” Overgaard) depart with the Princess and the elephant skin bag?

I agree that electronic shutters benefit when shooting silent or when much higher shutter speeds are needed. However, I'm also not convinced that it should be the default.
A focal-plane shutter travels at 1/250 sec, AFAIK. I.e., a sensor readout of 1/250 sec should give a similar result as a mechanical shutter.

Edited by SrMi
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The sensor problem has been solved for a while now. The Sony A9 used a rolling shutter but did so in a way that had no rolling shutter artifacts and is still one of the best sports / wildlife cameras available.  The Sony A1 has a shutter that can eliminate any banding from artificial lights, sometimes giving you a fractional shutter speed which is weird when you first see it. Other manufacturers are doing similar things in their flagship cameras. I guess the M isn't really a flagship camera, more of a niche in the Leica lineup these days.

I was excited when the rumours of an e-shutter in the M11 first surfaced, but what we got really isn't up to scratch with the best tech available, it's a couple of generations behind and I feel like if they used an e-shutter that was on par with some of the best available today a lot of people would be loving it, but I guess the added expense would have been a non-starter. 

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10 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

The sensor problem has been solved for a while now. The Sony A9 used a rolling shutter but did so in a way that had no rolling shutter artifacts and is still one of the best sports / wildlife cameras available.  The Sony A1 has a shutter that can eliminate any banding from artificial lights, sometimes giving you a fractional shutter speed which is weird when you first see it. Other manufacturers are doing similar things in their flagship cameras. I guess the M isn't really a flagship camera, more of a niche in the Leica lineup these days.

I was excited when the rumours of an e-shutter in the M11 first surfaced, but what we got really isn't up to scratch with the best tech available, it's a couple of generations behind and I feel like if they used an e-shutter that was on par with some of the best available today a lot of people would be loving it, but I guess the added expense would have been a non-starter. 

M11 sensor has the same electronic shutter issues as Sony a7rIV. I consider that Sony to be the latest generation.

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