Not a very positive take on M11 by Overgaard - says it will not be a classic

[Ko.Fe.]

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On 2/23/2022 at 2:53 PM, leicavkk said:

 

Obviously black M11's bottom plate is not classic, he is not going to like ugly aluminum wear of black M11. Not me, either .  Bellow is the only video from and with him I was able to  watch without much of the scrolling or just not watching after less than a minute. I even liked it, so goofy hilarious it is.    

 

 

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I wasn't saying it was "possible for Leica to do it wrong", I was saying when you downsample an image, there are many ways to do it – some benefit sharpness, others benefit smooth gradients. You can't have both, though you can have a mix perhaps.

<snip>

The algorithm used by Leica to reduce resolution is currently unknown but undoubtedly different from what we are familiar with in the post-processor. 
We know that only specific resolutions are possible; it works on full sensor data without demosaicing. Maybe that is why Leica calls it pixel binning, as it has a similar effect as pixel binning. Pixel binning has a similar impact as using larger pixels. So the effect that we see in reduced resolution should be the same as if the pixels were larger and thus resolution smaller.

[Herr Barnack]

On 3/4/2022 at 2:00 AM, jake-leica said:

Overplaaid is in the business of selling super cheaply made Chinese lens shades.  And sometimes even deliver them.  Otherwise though, how's his opinion important to anyone?

Ouch.

That said, there is precious little room for disagreement.

Edited March 5, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

The algorithm used by Leica to reduce resolution is currently unknown but undoubtedly different from what we are familiar with in the post-processor. 
We know that only specific resolutions are possible; it works on full sensor data without demosaicing. Maybe that is why Leica calls it pixel binning, as it has a similar effect as pixel binning. Pixel binning has a similar impact as using larger pixels. So the effect that we see in reduced resolution should be the same as if the pixels were larger and thus resolution smaller.

Ah, if they're doing the size reduction before the demosiac process, then that could help ensure subtle gradients retain full integrity. 

[Overgaard]

9 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I wasn't saying it was "possible for Leica to do it wrong", I was saying when you downsample an image, there are many ways to do it – some benefit sharpness, others benefit smooth gradients. You can't have both, though you can have a mix perhaps. And we don't have a native BSI Leica sensor at 36mp to compare it with to know for sure. For me, I'm not so concerned about sharpness, I'm more concerned about gradient smoothness. I would like to see the 60mp versus downsampled sky gradient smoothness compared when really pushing the files in post, which is where these things can really show their differences. One of the benefits of the current BSI sensors is the wonderful gradient smoothness and how well that translates to pliability in post. Maybe Leica more heavily weighted their downsampling toward preserving smooth gradients over sharpness, which is what I would prefer. But I've not seen anyone test this yet.

In any case, the differences from native to downsampled do exist. Will they make a difference for you or me? Maybe, maybe not. 

Yes. Faster performance and even better battery life with a native lower-resolution sensor. But how much and how meaningful, we may never know.

Leica M product manager Jesko von Oeynhausen did mention in his tech talk that 37MP is/could be better dynamic range/image quality, but ALSO that one can achieve the same result in PS downsampling. I saw David Farkas said he didn't see any difference (ever) and recommended staying always at 60MP, and https://www.reidreviews.com said there are some ISO noise improvements at 37MP. 

 

[Kwesi]

19 hours ago, hdmesa said:

I'm not saying that the M11's lower resolutions are not a welcome and helpful feature – they certainly are. But I also don't think it's unreasonable for some to hope for an M11 variant with the SL2-S sensor.

From a technical standpoint its not unreasonable.

I think we are more likely to see the SL2-s sensor in  an M10 body as a way to introduce a "new" lower cost M body and move stock. Much like they did with the M9 and M240 soon after the next generation was available. Assuming that the Maestro II processor is up to the task.

[idusidusi]

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18 hours ago, Ko.Fe. said:

Obviously black M11's bottom plate is not classic, he is not going to like ugly aluminum wear of black M11. Not me, either .  Bellow is the only video from and with him I was able to  watch without much of the scrolling or just not watching after less than a minute. I even liked it, so goofy hilarious it is.    

Lock it up in a 'dry cupboard' would do just the same, preferably with a see through bullet proof glass, so one can admire but not touch.

 

 

[tsleica]

M10 is now classic M..

M11..is abomination...lol..

Until..

M11 is ..classic..

And M12 is..

Abomination..

And ..so ...on..and on..forever and ever...

[david strachan]

M8 was Classic...definitely.

Anything afterwards...an afterthought  

Edited March 7, 2022 by david strachan

[FlashGordonPhotography]

On 3/6/2022 at 4:11 AM, evikne said:

Doesn't the M11 processor have to chew on the data from all 60 MPs, also at lower resolutions, before it downscales the image? I guess this has to slow down the speed a bit compared to a native lower resolution sensor?

No. You won't notice a speed difference. The camera operates at the same speed regardless of selected DNG resolution. The only difference is the buffer increases dramatically at lower resolutions. In continuous high shooting I gave up at 92 frames at 18MP DNG+Jpeg.

The only people having a whinge about the tri resolution in the M11 are those who haven't tried it.

Gordon

[adan]

On 3/5/2022 at 7:12 PM, hdmesa said:

Ah, if they're doing the size reduction before the demosiac process, then that could help ensure subtle gradients retain full integrity. 

Don't forget that de-mosaicing never happens in the camera, unless shooting jpegs (or on the fly low-rez for the EVF image).

A raw/.dng file is not de-mosaiced until it's in your computer, in Lightroom or whatever.

[hdmesa]

9 hours ago, adan said:

Don't forget that de-mosaicing never happens in the camera, unless shooting jpegs (or on the fly low-rez for the EVF image).

A raw/.dng file is not de-mosaiced until it's in your computer, in Lightroom or whatever.

Doh! It's always the obvious things that go right over my head 😂

[idusidusi]

Well as Overgaard himself says his articles are his 'opinions'. Personally I think the M11 has not been out long enough to be called or not be called the best M ever. Maybe 1 year from now this thread will be on page 40 talking about how classic the M11 is. Only time and patience will say.

[lct]

10 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

The only people having a whinge about the tri resolution in the M11 are those who haven't tried it.

Sean Reid seems to have noticed a loss of precision in rendering of detail when the M11 is set to record medium DNGs instead of large DNGs. Did you happen to notice the same? Sorry if the topic has been treated already.

[oka]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Sean Reid seems to have noticed a loss of precision in rendering of detail when the M11 is set to record medium DNGs instead of large DNGs. Did you happen to notice the same? Sorry if the topic has been treated already.

Yes, topic has been discussed on multiple places and reviews. Medium is bit soft - quite noticeably so on my eyes. Question is that can the firmware update fix the issue or not.

[lct]

8 minutes ago, oka said:

Yes, topic has been discussed on multiple places and reviews. Medium is bit soft - quite noticeably so on my eyes. Question is that can the firmware update fix the issue or not.

I did not know sorry. May i ask if you feel the need to sharpen in PP then? 

[oka]

6 minutes ago, lct said:

I did not know sorry. May i ask if you feel the need to sharpen in PP then? 

It's not something what you can easily fix (if at all) on afterwards. Also highlight DR is limited on medium raw. Thought, I don't see any reason not to shoot full raw:s. Storage is cheap, M11 is fast with full raw's anyway.

[lct]

7 minutes ago, oka said:

It's not something what you can easily fix (if at all) on afterwards. Also highlight DR is limited on medium raw. Thought, I don't see any reason not to shoot full raw:s. Storage is cheap, M11 is fast with full raw's anyway.

Doesn't reassure me that i must say. 60MP is too high a pixel count sans IBIS for my hands, LFI advised to shoot medium DNGs, but medium DNGs are too soft so i begin to wonder if i will not spend 9k on a 18MP camera... Do you know if the same softness has been reported on 18MP files? Sorry again if the topic has been discussed elsewhere.

Edited March 7, 2022 by lct

[oka]

17 minutes ago, lct said:

Doesn't reassure me that i must say. 60MP is too high a pixel count sans IBIS for my hands, LFI advised to shoot medium DNGs, but medium DNGs are too soft so i begin to wonder if i will not spend 9k on a 18MP camera... Do you know if the same softness has been reported on 18MP files? Sorry again if the topic has been discussed elsewhere.

I don't follow the logic here. 60mpx file resized to 18mpx is going to be as sharp as shooting with the body with 18mpx sensor - actually resized 18mpx photo from the 60mpx original is going to be superior compared to native 18mpx file.

Shoot at 60mpx, resize the file in PP and call it a day.

Fyi. I shoot mostly 1/60 and I have no problems with the sharpness of the files - problem here is that there are only few M lenses which can benefit from the massive 60mpx files.

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[lct]

23 minutes ago, oka said:

I don't follow the logic here. 60mpx file resized to 18mpx is going to be as sharp as shooting with the body with 18mpx sensor - actually resized 18mpx photo from the 60mpx original is going to be superior compared to native 18mpx file.

Shoot at 60mpx, resize the file in PP and call it a day.

Fyi. I shoot mostly 1/60 and I have no problems with the sharpness of the files - problem here is that there are only few M lenses which can benefit from the massive 60mpx files.

60MP is too high a pixel count for my hands sans IBIS as i tried to explain above, i should have mentioned motion blur in the first place perhaps sorry. Whatever allow me to formulate my question another way. Should i expect the same loss of acutance at 18 MP than that reported at 36MP by Sean Reid and, seemingly, other M11 users?