Why I will not be getting a M11...

[glogulus]

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@bernstein1234 I may have missed something in the 32 pages and was curious on whether or not you’ve had a change of heart about switching to an m11 or not?

[FlashGordonPhotography]

Well, if we're adding IBIS we may as well adress the elephant in the room. Autofocus! Surely that's responsible for more blurry shots than IBIS ever was........

I could write a list as long as my arm of the things an M doesn't have. And that's kind of the point. The M has become the anti-camera. All those other cameras with pages of menus and thousands of functions an options. The M remains the only camera where YOU need to improve if you want better performance. Every time an M is released we get pages about what it doesn't have and why it should because it costs so much. Blech! Go ahead and buy something that suits you better. It's not like there are no thoer cameras on the market.

I hand hold to 1/2F at 50MP. That's 1/25th with a 50mm. Consistantly. I print to A1, or larger,  regularly, so any imperfections show up quickly. More often than not I'm blur limited by subject movement rather than camera shake. Often I'll set my minimum speed to 1/60th because of subject movement, not me. In that regard the M11 is no different to the M10R or M10M, I own. I'm better with the X1D because it has better ergonomics and a leaf shutter. On a really good day I can get to 1/4F. But that's not reliable. It's doable with some fudging though.

I am able to get to these speeds for one reason. Practice. No secrets or magic pills. Just practice. I understand I have a slight advantage because I started with film and cameras where technique was essential. I shot weddings with 10 rolls of 135 and 4 rolls of 6x6. Almost every shot HAD to be sharp and correctly exposed. 400ISO was getting pretty rough in 135 format already. So I got good. Really good at holding a camera rock steady. So when I pick up an M I know I'm going to be at pixel level sharpness 95% of the time. And it's instinctive. I hold the camera exactly the right way. I focus properly. I breath right. I throw the shutter smoothly and consistantly. And I rarely even think about what I'm doing. The only extra is that I add a Thumbie to every M I own. Adds nearly a stop of steadyness. I'm looking for a lul in the wind or a wall to lean on. I shoot after I exhale etc, etc, etc. And no, it doesn't take longer. It's my natural place to be when I'm holding a camera.

Unless you have an imparement, there is zero reason you can't handhold as low as I can. None. Stop blaming the camera and just get better. Practice until it's instinct. The M is a camera that rewards good technique. That's kind of what the M offers that no other system does. A reward for better technique. If you're not happy to have great technique and to practice the craft, maybe the M isn't for you. If you're not getting at 1/F or lower you're holding it wrong.

Not to mention the M11 has other available resolutions which will allow even lower speeds. Most people have written thse off as a gimick. I don't know why. I'm really enjoying the variable resolution. I make most of my decisions in camera. And I rarely crop except for aspect ratio considerations. The 18MP setting is awesome. Grab a bit of extra DR for free. Less per pixel noise. Enough resolution for 90% of shots. I'm not printing family photos at A1. I get that some people just don't want to throw away pixels, just in case.. Actually, I don't. I think it's weird. Most people send to instagram as their output and shoot at 60MP like the shot will be better. It won't. It'll just be bigger. I have always shot to output. Having essentially three cameras on one box is excellent. I wish my other cameras had this.

Would I like IBIS in an M? Sure. But it isn't going to happen in the current body shape. So no. There's about 4mm behind the sensor to fit the sensor stuff and the LCD screen. I'm not anti IBIS. I have a dozen cameras that have it. I take advantage of it all the time. But I'm getting down to nearly a full second handheld with good technique and IBIS with a 50mm. The M has no IBIS. I knew that going in. I'm not surprised or upset. If it's that important there are dozens of cameras out there and some fine manual focus glass for them as well. The M challenges me to have my technique down. It rewards me when I use my brain and my technique, like no other camera. I like that.

Gordon

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[lct]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Not to mention the M11 has other available resolutions which will allow even lower speeds. Most people have written thse off as a gimick. I don't know why. I'm really enjoying the variable resolution. I make most of my decisions in camera. And I rarely crop except for aspect ratio considerations. The 18MP setting is awesome. Grab a bit of extra DR for free. Less per pixel noise.

Interesting indeed. Do you feel the need to use faster shutter speeds than usual @ 18MP on the M11? No need to multiply them by two of three then? I suspect not but i struggle to get confirmation of that from experience on this good old forum. Also did you notice less digital noise at 6400/12500 iso there? Sorry if my questions sound curious but i need IBIS above 40MP generally so the M11 could interest me at 33 or 18MP preferably.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

55 minutes ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed. Do you feel the need to use faster shutter speeds than usual @ 18MP on the M11? No need to multiply them by two of three then? I suspect not but i struggle to get confirmation of that from experience on this good old forum. Also did you notice less digital noise at 6400/12500 iso there? Sorry if my questions sound curious but i need IBIS above 40MP generally so the M11 could interest me at 33 or 18MP preferably.

Yes there's less noise at a pixel level at the lower resolutions. I haven't done any testing but from what I've seen from others it'll be the same if you did the resolution drop in post rather than in camera. I'm an in camera kind of guy though.

There's no difference for me holding the M11 at 18MP and (if I still had one) an M9. Maybe half a stop lower than at 50MP (diminishing returns and all that). Usually though, I find that I get limited by subject movement. Even on a tripod I'd find portraits drop off at lower speeds because things move, by small amounts. Large enough to take the edge off though. So once you get your technique to a certain point movement will be dictated by the subject not the photographer. For people I'm rarely below 1/60th, regardless of shutter shake. For urban I can go lower and in nature I go higher. So, yes, I can hold slower at 18MP but I also need to weigh that against the movement of the subject. As you are aware it's all a balancing act.

Gordon

[Stevejack]

2 hours ago, lct said:

Interesting indeed. Do you feel the need to use faster shutter speeds than usual @ 18MP on the M11? No need to multiply them by two of three then? I suspect not but i struggle to get confirmation of that from experience on this good old forum. Also did you notice less digital noise at 6400/12500 iso there? Sorry if my questions sound curious but i need IBIS above 40MP generally so the M11 could interest me at 33 or 18MP preferably.

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I don't personally experience any issues with the 60mp. Moving from 24mp up to 40mp and then up to 60mp Leica I don't really shoot them any differently, other than the newer cameras are much better at higher ISO so if sharpness is a concern I'll up the shutter speed a stop, and do the same with the ISO. Noise reduction is just so good these days, it's a non-issue. Certainly not a reason to avoid buying the M11.

Most people are worried more about general sharpness in low light, and that is solved by using a reasonable shutter speed and the brilliant ISO performance of the M11. There are very real aesthetic reasons to want to drag your shutter to reveal intentional movement of a subject, but keep the rest of the scene sharp. IBIS would be great here, but that's a creative choice that rarely comes into play in general shooting. 

A great example is the shot below. I could have used IBIS on this, which was 1/8sec on the M10M (40mp) but I don't think the shot suffers because I didn't have it. It is what it is, the scene is sharp enough and I got the motion blur in his 'battle-hands' that I wanted. From memory I propped my forearms on the bed to give me some additional support.  IBIS would have allowed me to just stand and take the shot, giving more options for composition and perhaps avoiding all the background clutter.

So yes - Leica, give us IBIS as soon as possible. But no, it's not a reason to avoid buying the camera.

 

 

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[Ouroboros]

I bought my M10-R a couple of weeks before the official announcement of the M11.

It was a deliberate decision that I made not to wait for the M11.  
 

I would only consider it if a future version is available in black paint without a red dot and has a removable baseplate. None of the features of the M11 that have been spouted ad nauseam on this thread would make a scrap of difference to my photography, just as it has not made the slightest improvement to anyone’s photography here, based on what I see in the M11 image thread.

Those who were good photographers before buying an M11 are still good photographers and those who were crap photographers before buying their M11 are still crap photographers. 
 

I prefer brass and black paint, so I’ll wait on….

Edited February 18, 2022 by Ouroboros

[lct]

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9 hours ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Yes there's less noise at a pixel level at the lower resolutions. I haven't done any testing but from what I've seen from others it'll be the same if you did the resolution drop in post rather than in camera. I'm an in camera kind of guy though.

There's no difference for me holding the M11 at 18MP and (if I still had one) an M9. Maybe half a stop lower than at 50MP (diminishing returns and all that). Usually though, I find that I get limited by subject movement. Even on a tripod I'd find portraits drop off at lower speeds because things move, by small amounts. Large enough to take the edge off though. So once you get your technique to a certain point movement will be dictated by the subject not the photographer. For people I'm rarely below 1/60th, regardless of shutter shake. For urban I can go lower and in nature I go higher. So, yes, I can hold slower at 18MP but I also need to weigh that against the movement of the subject. As you are aware it's all a balancing act.

Gordon

Thank you Gordon, much appreciated.

[lct]

8 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I know this wasn't directed at me, but I don't personally experience any issues with the 60mp. Moving from 24mp up to 40mp and then up to 60mp Leica I don't really shoot them any differently, other than the newer cameras are much better at higher ISO so if sharpness is a concern I'll up the shutter speed a stop, and do the same with the ISO. Noise reduction is just so good these days, it's a non-issue. Certainly not a reason to avoid buying the M11.

Most people are worried more about general sharpness in low light, and that is solved by using a reasonable shutter speed and the brilliant ISO performance of the M11. There are very real aesthetic reasons to want to drag your shutter to reveal intentional movement of a subject, but keep the rest of the scene sharp. IBIS would be great here, but that's a creative choice that rarely comes into play in general shooting. 

A great example is the shot below. I could have used IBIS on this, which was 1/8sec on the M10M (40mp) but I don't think the shot suffers because I didn't have it. It is what it is, the scene is sharp enough and I got the motion blur in his 'battle-hands' that I wanted. From memory I propped my forearms on the bed to give me some additional support.  IBIS would have allowed me to just stand and take the shot, giving more options for composition and perhaps avoiding all the background clutter.

So yes - Leica, give us IBIS as soon as possible. But no, it's not a reason to avoid buying the camera.

I get your opinion but don't share it totally with respect. I need IBIS above 40MP although i have steady hands for my age , as for the M11 being clean at high isos it can only be true compared to your M9 or my M240 but compared to my Sony gear i can't seem to get clean enough results for my tastes above 3200/6400 iso. Not a criticism just that the M11 is not for me at 60MP given that i don't like tripods but i'm somewhat reassured by what Gordon wrote above at lower MPs. Now will i order an M11 or wait for another camera like M11-S or EVF-M is another story. GAS says M11 and reason says wait for now .

Edited February 18, 2022 by lct

[wizard]

Am 5.2.2022 um 21:48 schrieb paulsydaus:

I have heard the camera and it is a major step back in terms of sound.

Admittedly, I have not yet heard the M11 in action, but I could barely hear the M10R in action when I used it. Assuming the volume of an M11 in action corresponds to that of an M10R, I fail to understand how this can be 'a major step back'. I do appreciate that M11's shutter is a little more active (due to live view always on) when compared to an M10 or M10R, but as long as it is barely audible, I  don't really care.

[shirubadanieru]

7 hours ago, wizard said:

Admittedly, I have not yet heard the M11 in action, but I could barely hear the M10R in action when I used it. Assuming the volume of an M11 in action corresponds to that of an M10R, I fail to understand how this can be 'a major step back'. I do appreciate that M11's shutter is a little more active (due to live view always on) when compared to an M10 or M10R, but as long as it is barely audible, I  don't really care.

It’s literally 99% the same sound, don’t worry too much. You are definitely right. This is the ‘when you don’t have nothing left to complain’ kind of complaint. 

[Stevejack]

12 hours ago, lct said:

I get your opinion but don't share it totally with respect. I need IBIS above 40MP although i have steady hands for my age , as for the M11 being clean at high isos it can only be true compared to your M9 or my M240 but compared to my Sony gear i can't seem to get clean enough results for my tastes above 3200/6400 iso. Not a criticism just that the M11 is not for me at 60MP given that i don't like tripods but i'm somewhat reassured by what Gordon wrote above at lower MPs. Now will i order an M11 or wait for another camera like M11-S or EVF-M is another story. GAS says M11 and reason says wait for now .

That's fair. I probably stopped worrying so much about ISO when I started shooting birds with my Sony, I was rarely ever shooting under ISO6400 and often at ISO12,800 in an attempt to keep the shutter speed high and obviously cropping in hard which was brutal. I'm probably skewed from working with those images so anything looks good in comparison these days 😅

I think a used M10R is the best deal in town right now, such a great camera and possibly less of a hit buying and selling used if you're thinking of upgrading in a couple of years. 40mp is a good sweet spot I think and a found the entire package it a worthwhile upgrade over the M240, as good as that camera was. 

[archive_all]

2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

It’s literally 99% the same sound, don’t worry too much. You are definitely right. This is the ‘when you don’t have nothing left to complain’ kind of complaint. 

I second that. It sounds just slightly different and barely louder than the M10R.

[Stevejack]

15 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

I bought my M10-R a couple of weeks before the official announcement of the M11.

It was a deliberate decision that I made not to wait for the M11.  
 

I would only consider it if a future version is available in black paint without a red dot and has a removable baseplate. None of the features of the M11 that have been spouted ad nauseam on this thread would make a scrap of difference to my photography, just as it has not made the slightest improvement to anyone’s photography here, based on what I see in the M11 image thread.

Those who were good photographers before buying an M11 are still good photographers and those who were crap photographers before buying their M11 are still crap photographers. 
 

I prefer brass and black paint, so I’ll wait on….

Other discussions aside, I really like your ICM images on your website. Beautiful work. 

[lct]

33 minutes ago, Stevejack said:

That's fair. I probably stopped worrying so much about ISO when I started shooting birds with my Sony, I was rarely ever shooting under ISO6400 and often at ISO12,800 in an attempt to keep the shutter speed high and obviously cropping in hard which was brutal. I'm probably skewed from working with those images so anything looks good in comparison these days 😅

I think a used M10R is the best deal in town right now, such a great camera and possibly less of a hit buying and selling used if you're thinking of upgrading in a couple of years. 40mp is a good sweet spot I think and a found the entire package it a worthwhile upgrade over the M240, as good as that camera was. 

60MP is not for me i guess but did you compare the M10-R to the M11 @ 33MP? 

[Stevejack]

7 minutes ago, lct said:

60MP is not for me i guess but did you compare the M10-R to the M11 @ 33MP? 

No, I think I'm one of the lucky ones that don't have issues with the 60mp files so I haven't needed to explore it. Obviously reducing the files in post makes a massive difference, but I can't comment on the difference between reducing in post versus capturing at 36mp with the pixel binning method. I thought I saw Jono or someone else mention that results looked the same whether it was done in camera vs during post, but I may have mis-remembered that?

[lct]

•

Edited February 19, 2022 by lct

[wizard]

Am 19.2.2022 um 02:57 schrieb Stevejack:

... that results looked the same whether it was done in camera vs during post, but I may have mis-remembered that?

No, your recollection is correct, that's what Jono said.

[Guest]

I thought I'd join in here.......It's raining and I'm wet enough having walked the dog, so there some down / dry out time going spare.

No, I will not be buying the M11, at least until it's proven to have matured enough for me to make that step and for what I do with a M camera it would have to show a significant advantage, and there's no "there" there...........Yet

There's also the little matter of not being able to afford the step up or justify flogging off gear that still has real practical value to be able to make such a move happen.

First what I like, but also a caveat in that I have yet to handle a M11 in "real life".

I think I do like the fixed base and the battery set-up. I have been one who had been nudging for years for Leica to step away from the removable base-plate and now they've done so and I think it appears to have been done very well, it's like my Q2M and that's only good.

I like the fact that the body shape is the same as the M10 with just a few differences. The M10 body is the pinnacle of the M line in my opinion.

I like, I think, the internal "storage", but I would be concerned that if that storage had a problem then the whole camera would have to disappear into Leica's repair swamp for whoever knows how long it would take to put right. I guess twin SD slots were out of the question, though frankly I have never had a problem with my digital M's to date only having one slot. So for me I guess this "advantage" is kinda moot.

The sensor. Well there's an awful lot of noise about this, not image noise, just noise. I feel that this is not the right step for me to take, I cannot see the sense of offering a pixel count above that of the 10R or the 10M without incorporating some form of IBS. It's just dumb that a camera that offers the advantages of cleaner and higher ISO use needs to mitigate those advantages with the operator having to use higher shutter speeds to avoid the "pixel shake", ( for want of a better word ). I see that effect to some degree with my M10-R, oddly though not with the M10-M and have learned some techniques to avoid it but it is annoying to have to compensate for that when I have been used to using much slower M shutter speeds for decades with both film and digital without such problems. The ability to be able to change the sensor's resolution is interesting, but only if by choosing a lower resolution you avoid the "pixel shake" issues, otherwise I think it's a useless facility because most users are going to want to use the full resolution anyway despite the fact that they patently don't need to do so for most of their work. I would have much rather that Leica had concentrated on finding a sensor that improved the DR and latency of the images than joining the pixel race. For me the sweet spot of sensors, ( without IBS ), would be 24-36 mp, and that would be much more than good enough for 90% of the photography that Leica M owners are doing these days, ( actually a simple APSC P&S camera would do as well from what I have seen on forum image pages, but that's another ball of wax ). The M is not a camera that most professionals would use nowadays, too expensive for a comprehensive entry into the system and not versatile enough compared to others so the need for a high pixel count isn't I believe there or justifiable for most serious users.

Other than the small body changes then there's nothing there yet that would encourage me to move "up", I just do not see or feel any reason to do so, but who knows? Never say never........right?

The M though is "camera crack". I've used them since the 1960's , professionally mainly as "B" cameras to my Nikon workhorses from the Ftn 2's to the F5's and for personal work for what I want to photograph for myself rather than clients. Once you've entered the M universe the heavy gravity pull keeps you in that expensive black hole and it's not easy to use other systems despite the fact that many, most, do offer a wealth of really good choices for a serious photographer. It is for me the OVF that more than anything else keeps me with the M system, I have yet to find an EVF of any form or quality that comes even close to the OVF experience whether that's with a rangefinder camera or an SLR, period.

 

Edited February 22, 2022 by petermullett
spelling

[Lax Jought]

On 1/14/2022 at 4:41 PM, setuporg said:

Please note that anyone who agrees with the topic will have two options here:

1.  Ostracized 

2.  Shunned

That's fine, because:

1. I love ostriches.

2.  It's about time I got out of the house post-COVID and got a nice shunnedtan anyway.

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[grahamc]

On 2/22/2022 at 9:12 PM, petermullett said:

I thought I'd join in here.......It's raining and I'm wet enough having walked the dog, so there some down / dry out time going spare.

No, I will not be buying the M11, at least until it's proven to have matured enough for me to make that step and for what I do with a M camera it would have to show a significant advantage, and there's no "there" there...........Yet

There's also the little matter of not being able to afford the step up or justify flogging off gear that still has real practical value to be able to make such a move happen.

First what I like, but also a caveat in that I have yet to handle a M11 in "real life".

I think I do like the fixed base and the battery set-up. I have been one who had been nudging for years for Leica to step away from the removable base-plate and now they've done so and I think it appears to have been done very well, it's like my Q2M and that's only good.

I like the fact that the body shape is the same as the M10 with just a few differences. The M10 body is the pinnacle of the M line in my opinion.

I like, I think, the internal "storage", but I would be concerned that if that storage had a problem then the whole camera would have to disappear into Leica's repair swamp for whoever knows how long it would take to put right. I guess twin SD slots were out of the question, though frankly I have never had a problem with my digital M's to date only having one slot. So for me I guess this "advantage" is kinda moot.

The sensor. Well there's an awful lot of noise about this, not image noise, just noise. I feel that this is not the right step for me to take, I cannot see the sense of offering a pixel count above that of the 10R or the 10M without incorporating some form of IBS. It's just dumb that a camera that offers the advantages of cleaner and higher ISO use needs to mitigate those advantages with the operator having to use higher shutter speeds to avoid the "pixel shake", ( for want of a better word ). I see that effect to some degree with my M10-R, oddly though not with the M10-M and have learned some techniques to avoid it but it is annoying to have to compensate for that when I have been used to using much slower M shutter speeds for decades with both film and digital without such problems. The ability to be able to change the sensor's resolution is interesting, but only if by choosing a lower resolution you avoid the "pixel shake" issues, otherwise I think it's a useless facility because most users are going to want to use the full resolution anyway despite the fact that they patently don't need to do so for most of their work. I would have much rather that Leica had concentrated on finding a sensor that improved the DR and latency of the images than joining the pixel race. For me the sweet spot of sensors, ( without IBS ), would be 24-36 mp, and that would be much more than good enough for 90% of the photography that Leica M owners are doing these days, ( actually a simple APSC P&S camera would do as well from what I have seen on forum image pages, but that's another ball of wax ). The M is not a camera that most professionals would use nowadays, too expensive for a comprehensive entry into the system and not versatile enough compared to others so the need for a high pixel count isn't I believe there or justifiable for most serious users.

Other than the small body changes then there's nothing there yet that would encourage me to move "up", I just do not see or feel any reason to do so, but who knows? Never say never........right?

The M though is "camera crack". I've used them since the 1960's , professionally mainly as "B" cameras to my Nikon workhorses from the Ftn 2's to the F5's and for personal work for what I want to photograph for myself rather than clients. Once you've entered the M universe the heavy gravity pull keeps you in that expensive black hole and it's not easy to use other systems despite the fact that many, most, do offer a wealth of really good choices for a serious photographer. It is for me the OVF that more than anything else keeps me with the M system, I have yet to find an EVF of any form or quality that comes even close to the OVF experience whether that's with a rangefinder camera or an SLR, period.

 

Thanks for taking the time Peter, there is some great info here . 

Not to stray too far off topic here but In response to your comments about 'pixel shake' ....do you have any regrets (if that's the right word, but probably a little strong !) in upgrading to M10-R ?  ( I am presuming you made that step from M10 but I could be wrong there of course).     The reason I ask is I am thinking to go from M10 to M10-R.  Like you , I feel these 40 ish MP cameras to be quite future-proof and of course the GAS is calling as usual for an M10R BP .

But if 24-36 is indeed a sweet spot I'd be quite interested whether you would advise others to make that step to the R sensor .

Part of my justification is that as a 10-D user I sometimes do have the need for a screen    M10-M is tempting but if I'm going to invest in a body for the use of the screen then it may also aswell shoot colour.

To keep on thread topic, this is all in the context of the fact that I won't be buying an 11 right now (but never say never) as I'm still keen for some of the purer features of the 10 line (removable baseplate, etc) .  But maybe I am just a late adopter .  

I did have the pleasure of handling an 11 recently and the weight reduction and finish was really nice btw. 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by grahamc