M11 Monochrom is coming ?

[insideline]

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1 hour ago, Maxmd said:

How did you order one without an official release? 

The M11M has been rumored to be released for quite some time so I put my name on the list at my dealer many months back.

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[Maxmd]

8 minutes ago, insideline said:

The M11M has been rumored to be released for quite some time so I put my name on the list at my dealer many months back.

Nice. I’m located in US. Would you suggest to preorder the camera (when it gets announced) from a US Leica dealer or order it straight from Leica in Berlin/Münich for possibly better chances of getting it sooner? 

[hdmesa]

https://leicarumors.com/2023/04/10/first-leaked-pictures-of-the-of-the-upcoming-leica-m11-monochrom-camera-and-new-leica-summilux-m-50-f-1-4-asph-lens.aspx/

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[Olaf_ZG]

1 hour ago, hdmesa said:

https://leicarumors.com/2023/04/10/first-leaked-pictures-of-the-of-the-upcoming-leica-m11-monochrom-camera-and-new-leica-summilux-m-50-f-1-4-asph-lens.aspx/

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I atleast expected black nails… 

[Gelatino]

Wait for Jono's review, one spec that is sure is base ISO raised to 125.

[jonoslack]

7 hours ago, rtai said:

Can you please post the shot? It must be great to make it on your wall.

HI There Rtai

Here it is as a jpg

for those who haven't followed this was an 18mp DNG from Henri (Leica M9M) which we have printed 60" wide at the office - and you can stand right in front of it and look at the leaves. 

I think you can probably download the DNG file here if you're interested

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pn376uziyoh6l8c/L9032361_bridge.DNG?dl=0

If you're really a glutton for punishment, here is the original article:

https://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Monochrom.html

All the best

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[jakontil]

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7 hours ago, hdmesa said:

https://leicarumors.com/2023/04/10/first-leaked-pictures-of-the-of-the-upcoming-leica-m11-monochrom-camera-and-new-leica-summilux-m-50-f-1-4-asph-lens.aspx/

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For once i thought it was @jonoslack fingers

[algrove]

I wonder if the previews of images on the new M11M will be like the original with DNG readout available after a few seconds of delay or jpg only?

Edited April 11, 2023 by algrove

[TeleElmar135mm]

vor 7 Stunden schrieb Olaf_ZG:

I atleast expected black nails… 

If there is not red dot on the camera you need red nails to release the camera ... otherwise  the pictures become color

[Stuart Richardson]

17 hours ago, pgh said:

I really can't recall a compelling photograph - an image that was already successful on the terms of its content / execution that I've come across where I thought "Oh, this is an almost...if only it had a little bit more sharpness"

I understand this stuff sort of - there is a sweet spot. I wasn't happy with digital until about ~2015 or so when the quality of the 30-40 mp sensors of the time essentially matched the detail of medium format prints - but when I saw the show of Lieko Shiga's Rasen Kaigen and there were 50+" prints from 35mm negative scans they were incredible. Not that you couldn't see grain, but it was part of the charm. A picture at some point will always fail to be a facsimile of reality and chasing that endlessly, for me, sort of misses the point of where photography succeeds as a medium (which is getting to be a narrower and narrower place imo). 

Especially with the monochrom series - where grains/noise looks so good if crazy enlargement is needed, the pursuit of reproducing reality through an image...just feels a little antithetical to me. But I've spent almost a decade convinced 30-40 mp is a general sweet spot for still photography where it works best (which is imo in books and in approachable sized prints in galleries - at a certain level you're starting to look like wallpaper even if the detail is incredible), so you can call me stodgy. I remain open to changing my mind upon seeing an example that blows me away, but I'm not holding my breath. 

My main gig is as an exhibition printer, and I pretty much concur with this...at least for Leica cameras and lenses, or those of equivalent quality. Obviously a camera like the GFX100 will provide more detail, or a Phase etc, but I have 100x150cm prints done on the S006 at 37mp, where they are about 120dpi, and they leave little to be desired. You can always have more and better detail, but at a certain point it becomes about practical trade-offs. I upgraded to the S3 and found out I actually preferred the rendering of the S006, even in large prints. I finally sold both and stuck with the SL2, which looks better than both to me, primarily because the SL APO Summicrons are so extraordinary, especially combined with the SL2 sensor which is so clean and sharp at base ISO.

I think an M11 Monochrome will be an exceptional camera, and it will almost certainly set a new standard for what is possible with 35mm image quality (at least for black and white). That said, you are really going to need to take your prints to the extreme to notice a substantial difference over an M11 or M10M. Doing so will almost certainly require the best of the best lenses, primarily the APO Summicrons or the APO Voigtlander lenses. To be honest, I think the better argument for an M11M is all the small tweaks over the M10 series. If you are a black and white only photographer, having the better battery life, USB C charging, e shutter, better EVF and so on may make for a more usable camera.

I would love this camera, but at the price the M cameras are at now, I just cannot really justify it for a secondary camera. My main workhorse is the SL2, and the M series would mainly be for travel and or as a camera to carry with me in informal sessions. The current eye watering prices make that a bit hard to swallow, at least for me. Ms were never cheap, but I keep thinking that my first M cost 2200 USD new about twenty years ago. Adjusted for inflation that is around 3600 USD, and yet the M11 is nearly three times that...

[charlesphoto99]

Pssst: I’ll let you in on a secret, you guys may not want to trade those M10M’s for M11M’s quite yet because the M12M is going to be soooo much better, lol. But then that M14M….

 

[thrid]

$9200

Not surprising, but still, ...ouch.

 

But the rumored 15 stops sounds pretty impressive 

[Chaemono]

The main differences between how the images of the M10M and M11M come out will likely be treatment of highlights at the same settings (BSI sensor vs. FSI sensor), pushed shadows noise at high ISO and, again, highlight control (BSI sensor vs. FSI sensor), background blur with the same lens at the same settings (BSI sensor vs. FSI sensor), and perhaps some more resolution of detail in pushed shadows for M11M due to more MP. It could very well be that the M11M appears to blow highlights more easily but may allow for more highlight detail recovery than the M10M. 

The M11M will turn out to be another lowlight fetishist‘s wet-dream https://www.ultrasomething.com/2020/01/paradox-view-the-m10-monochrom/

The truly lucky ones may be those who can get an M10M at a lower price because for most practical purposes, these differences will be minimal. 

[Jacobjuul]

3 hours ago, thrid said:

$9200

Not surprising, but still, ...ouch.

 

But the rumored 15 stops sounds pretty impressive 

15 stops on a 14 bit sensor, am I missing something?

[alksv]

29 minutes ago, Jacobjuul said:

15 stops on a 14 bit sensor, am I missing something?

Assuming a 60mp sensor is approx. 6340 pixels, we have log2(6340/1600) – 2 stops. 2+13.4 gives you the "15 stops of DR". Which is arguably not a meaningful metric. But in a competitive market you need to invent and increase the numbers.

[Chaemono]

vor 31 Minuten schrieb Jacobjuul:

15 stops on a 14 bit sensor, am I missing something?

It could be from the extra detail that can be recovered in pushed shadows of a 60 MP BSI sensor at base ISO vs a 41 MP FSI sensor at base ISO. This needs to be tested. 

[Nimar]

2 hours ago, Jacobjuul said:

15 stops on a 14 bit sensor, am I missing something?

Yes. The number of bits define how many slices a range is broken up into (2^14 to be exact). You could could have 100 stops of dynamic range in an 8 bit file, just wouldn’t have as fine gradients, as you’d have with a 14bit file. 

 

Edited April 11, 2023 by Nimar

[Jon Warwick]

23 hours ago, jonoslack said:

HI There Rtai

Here it is as a jpg

for those who haven't followed this was an 18mp DNG from Henri (Leica M9M) which we have printed 60" wide at the office - and you can stand right in front of it and look at the leaves. 

I think you can probably download the DNG file here if you're interested

https://www.dropbox.com/s/pn376uziyoh6l8c/L9032361_bridge.DNG?dl=0

If you're really a glutton for punishment, here is the original article:

https://www.slack.co.uk/slack/Monochrom.html

All the best

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

It’s a fantastic image. Thanks for posting including the DNG. Admittedly I’m in the camp where I think the M10M (or potential 60mp M11M) would be even better to more accurately render the detail in a 60” wide print, but I liken the higher megapixel argument to film days when some of us actively chose 35mm vs 120 vs 5x4 vs 10x8, going up in resolution to increase the fidelity and “sharpness” of the image. Still, I think large format technique of camera on a tripod (and to Stuart’s point the best APO lenses) are pretty key to seeing obvious improvement as full frame marches from 40mp to 60mp.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Jon Warwick

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[jonoslack]

2 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

It’s a fantastic image. Thanks for posting including the DNG. Admittedly I’m in the camp where I think the M10M (or potential 60mp M11M) would be even better to more accurately render the detail in a 60” wide print, but I liken the higher megapixel argument to film days when some of us actively chose 35mm vs 120 vs 5x4 vs 10x8, going up in resolution to increase the fidelity and “sharpness” of the image. Still, I think large format technique of camera on a tripod (and to Stuart’s point the best APO lenses) are pretty key to seeing obvious improvement as full frame marches from 40mp to 60mp.

Hi John

I'm not advocating keeping to lower megapixel, I like every bit I can get, just keeping a reality check.

As for the large format technique of using a tripod . . . . . I don't think I agree. If you can shoot at 1600 ISO without losing much in quality (which you can with the M11) then you can easily keep the shutter speed to levels were camera shake is not such an issue - indeed, I don't shoot so much in low light,  and this is the main advantage of better and better high ISO.

I quite agree with @Stuart Richardson remarks about the APO Summicron SL lenses - they're magical, and a perfect balance of size and performance.

All the best

Jono

[Stuart Richardson]

I am also a more is more kind of person when it comes to resolution, but even I have to admit that there are limits to the practicality for that. I think Jon's point about 60" wide prints is true, but even among those of use who make big prints, 60" is not often required. At least unless that truly is your signature. In my experience, most photographers top out at about 30x40 inches for "regular" prints and 40x60 for "huge" prints. Part of that is practical...the most commonly available fine art printers are 44 inches wide. The 60 inch models are harder to find and generally a bit behind in quality (not much, just a generation of printers). What convinced me to stick with the SL2 was that I just thought it looked better, and I was already happy with 100x150cm from the 37mp S2 and S006, so 47mp with sharper lenses in the SL2 is frankly enough for me. On the off chance that I want more quality I can use multishot. In comparison to film, 4x5 may extract a bit more detail...a bit. But it also comes with grain and softness...again, a bit. I think in large prints they are functionally equivalent in most cases. The differences are more about tonality and character of the detail, as well as the highlight curve (at least for negative film).

What does all this mean for the M11 Monochrome? It likely means that you have a compact 35mm camera that can provide large format quality images while handheld, most likely up to ISO 50000 or so. That is pretty extraordinary. Will it make better pictures than a view camera? That is the kicker...regardless of resolution there is something about the ceremony and way that people react to large format cameras that really helps with good pictures. Same with the ability to control the frame with rise, fall and tilt and shift. Or bellows limited close focus. But when it comes to high quality on the move, the M11M is going to be an extraordinary tool. Not to be a broken record, but it is a shame about the price. When the M3 came out in 1954 and was 250 dollars, that would be 2700 today adjusted for inflation. The digital m's are soaring out of reach of a lot of photographers who could otherwise stretch to afford them and make great images. I don't think we will look back on this era and see all that many great photographers using Leicas. At least not compared to previous generations.

Edited April 12, 2023 by Stuart Richardson