Leica would like to make a CL2 But..

[Kim Dahl]

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I heard a dealer talk about it being difficult for Leica to buy APSC censor ?   and that production of APSC sensors will decrease in the next 5 years.  Then it would only be Fuji left.  And Fuji does not want to sell APSC censor too Leica ?  Can there be anything about the talk ? 
So stopping Leica's APSC series is not a wish or a matter of sale.  But the general sales are so small that it is believed that Fuji will be the only ones to produce the APSC censor in about 5 years. Could that be an explanation ? 
 

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Kim Dahl said:

I heard a dealer talk about it being difficult for Leica to buy APSC censor ?   and that production of APSC sensors will decrease in the next 5 years.  Then it would only be Fuji left.  And Fuji does not want to sell APSC censor too Leica ?  Can there be anything about the talk ? 
So stopping Leica's APSC series is not a wish or a matter of sale.  But the general sales are so small that it is believed that Fuji will be the only ones to produce the APSC censor in about 5 years. Could that be an explanation ? 
 

While Fuji is the most  committed in the APS-C area, Nikon, Sony, and Pentax are regularly launching new APS-C cameras. I do not expect that to change anytime soon.

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[jaapv]

APS-C is quite common for video as well 

[Kim Dahl]

Yes, whether he had more insight than the rest of us, I do not know.  But sales of the Leica apsc were almost non-existent.  
He also thought other brands - with the exception of Fuji - would move away from the apsc.  Fuji makes its own censors?  - what he has been told was very convincing.  

APSC lenses will be used on FF.  So the message was clear.  Bet on FF.  
I got a few very small hints about the new M11 - ☺️👍🏻 it will be innovative and a big (and exciting) step for Leica.  
So I'm looking forward to January

 Merry and blessed Christmas to all. ❤️💙🎄🎄

[jaapv]

Maybe it tells us more about his customers than about Leica’s sales in general?  

[Simone_DF]

13 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

I heard a dealer talk about it being difficult for Leica to buy APSC censor ?   and that production of APSC sensors will decrease in the next 5 years.  Then it would only be Fuji left.  And Fuji does not want to sell APSC censor too Leica ?  Can there be anything about the talk ? 
So stopping Leica's APSC series is not a wish or a matter of sale.  But the general sales are so small that it is believed that Fuji will be the only ones to produce the APSC censor in about 5 years. Could that be an explanation ? 

Fuji XTrans sensors have a completely different sensor architecture compared to Bayer. It would not be a good idea for a third party to acquire them, they'd need to redevelop the system (processor, image pipeline etc) and that's not financially viable for Leica. 

If sales of APS-C cameras are so small, how come Nikon has released a brand new mirrorless APS-C line 6 months ago?

[FrozenInTime]

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I'm sure most camera sensors these days are supplied from Sony Fabs with customer specific customisation such as xtrans or bayer colour filter arrays and microlenses layered on as a secondary process.

 

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

I'm sure most camera sensors these days are supplied from Sony Fabs with customer specific customisation such as xtrans or bayer colour filter arrays and microlenses layered on as a secondary process.

I thought Fuji was developing their own sensors, especially since the they are the ones providing the X Trans filter array.

Does Sony sell X Trans sensor? Genuinely curious. 

[SrMi]

50 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

I thought Fuji was developing their own sensors, especially since the they are the ones providing the X Trans filter array.

Does Sony sell X Trans sensor? Genuinely curious. 

The camera manufacturer's sensor toppings (e.g., filter array) vary, even if the sensor is shared with others. For example, when Nikon, Fuji, or Leica use the Sony sensors, they specify their own sensor toppings. The difference in sensor topping is one of the reasons why their images differ from Sony cameras.
AFAIK, some Fuji cameras may use Sony sensors.

[Simone_DF]

14 hours ago, SrMi said:

AFAIK, some Fuji cameras may use Sony sensors.

Thank you, I was not aware of that!

[ramarren]

Fuji has their own sensor fab, but also uses Sony sensors for some of their models. Certainly their medium-format Digital offerings are using the Sony sensors. Not sure which of the APS-C and smaller format cameras might. 

My perspective on this is simple: The L mount was designed to be fine with FF as well as APS-C sensors. They could certainly rework the CL innards to fit a FF sensor with very little impact on the external shape ... the CL is not so much smaller than an M10 that it poses an impossiblity to achieve that. Something might have to be compromised ... likely a smaller battery in keeping with the more "amateur" audience ... but all of that is just requirements compromises. 

In fact, I'm of the mind that the CL2 in a FF sensor configuration could well be the "digital viewfinder Leica M" that is often asked for/proposed on this and other forums. Even if it had to be just slightly larger, I doubt it would compete directly with the M, and going that route would give them a compact, AF capable, EVF body to offer alongside the rangefinder line. Lenses and such could be shared through the existing M Adapter L the same as they are with the CL now, and it could easily continue with the control DNA of the SL/CL which seems to be appealing to most of those cameras ... and most of the code to run that can be shared. 

I still don't need another camera. But a full-frame CL-like camera that remains compact and light weight— smaller, simpler, and less costly than the SL/SL2/Panasonic whatever—would be a nice camera. 

In the meantime ... I'll just keep making photographs with my current equipment. No downside to that... and no cost.  

G

PS: In all honesty, I think I'd rather try a Pixii ... because I actually prefer APS-C for several reasons.  LOL! 

Edited December 24, 2021 by ramarren

[nicci78]

Fujifilm do not have any camera sensor fab !

They are buying their APS-C and 33x44 MF sensors from Sony Semiconductors. 
 

Leica, Ricoh and Sony itself are also using Sony Semiconductors 24MP APS-C sensor. 
Nikon has its own design but its sensors are also made by Sony Semiconductors. 
 

X-Trans tech is only the colour filter in front of the sensor. Under it the Sony 26MP BSI APS-C sensor is the same for Fujifilm or Pentax. 
 

What I heard is that Sony Semiconductor has reduced production of APS-C sensor in favour of Smartphone’s and 24x36’s ones. 
 

So even Sony has publicly stated that they stopped production of A6400, A6600  and brand new ZV-E10. Due to lack of components. 
They are shifting production to  full frame cameras. 
 

It is possible that Fujifilm has bought all fab capacity left from Sony. Because they are mainly an APS-C size company and depend on them more than anyone else. Therefore no leftovers for other companies like Leica. 
 

Whatever the reason. It is a sad year for APS-C. 
 

Edited December 25, 2021 by nicci78

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

It is possible that Fujifilm has bought all fab capacity left from Sony. Because they are mainly an APS-C size company and depend on them more than anyone else. Therefore no leftovers for other companies like Leica. 

This clashes with the recent release of the GRIIIx. Ricoh can get the APS-C sensors but Leica can't?

[SoCalLeicanator]

14 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

This clashes with the recent release of the GRIIIx. Ricoh can get the APS-C sensors but Leica can't?

I think it's the same 24 MP sensor that they used in the GRIII.  Maybe they don't see the point in upgrading the rest without an upgraded sensor?

[ramarren]

Given the excellent noise characteristic, dynamic range, and resolution of the CL as it already is, it doesn't seem to need a "sensor improvement" at all. The only reason I can imagine for people wanting a CL2 model is to get "more stuff" into the camera ... like ibis and such ... most of which is, to me, utterly irrelevant and unnecessary convenience stuff. 

G

[nicci78]

15 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

This clashes with the recent release of the GRIIIx. Ricoh can get the APS-C sensors but Leica can't?

GR IIIx is the same camera as GR III with another lens. 
Same 24MP sensor. 
 

I guess that if Leica release CL2 it will have a new sensor at least. Otherwise why bother. 

[SoCalLeicanator]

5 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

GR IIIx is the same camera as GR III with another lens. 
Same 24MP sensor. 
 

I guess that if Leica release CL2 it will have a new sensor at least. Otherwise why bother. 

Exactement!

[jaapv]

Leica does have preference for Sony sensors, especially for APS-C, but they have shown in the past that they do not hesitate to switch supplier. 

[nicci78]

https://www.gophotonics.com/directory/cmos-image-sensors
There is actually 49 CMOS sensor manufacturers. So plenty to choose from ! 
But Sony has 70% market share….  because they are the very best. 

Edited December 26, 2021 by nicci78

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[Kim Dahl]

I agree that CL is already a good camera.  The same is TL2.  The problem may not be the upgrade to CL2 and new lenses.  The problem is that when nothing new Leica APSC has come and Leica does not comment on whether they are still developing the system.  And that when a very large Leica dealer (and no - it's not because it says anything about that dealer. Because if APSC was sold then I can not believe they were not also sold there) says that the sale of APSC has been almost not  existing for a very long time.  But about developing APSC in 5 years or not - then we can be happy with what we have and look for FF if we want to upgrade.  Leica has both Q and M - but unfortunately not something that can replace my TL2 when I want it.