M10M & Blown Highlights

[lb1800]

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Hi all,

I’m contemplating getting an M10M to use alongside my M10-D. 
 

There has been much written about the improved highlight performance of the M10R over the M10.
 

My question is - is that improvement apparent in the M10M too? Will I see better highlight performance in an M10M vs my M10D?

Thanks. 
 

 

[a.noctilux]

I don't know for "blown highlights", but having a look at the dynamic range chart,

choosing M10-R and M10 Monochrom,

the M10-Monochrom has better dynamic range than M10-R.

this link

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm

 

So careful using the M Dynamic Range can be my best bet for "blown HL" or not.

Edited May 2, 2021 by a.noctilux

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[lb1800]

Thanks a.noctilux.

I probably should have been more precise… I was referring to the ability to recover highlights that are significantly overexposed…an area where I understand the M10R outperforms the M10 by quite a margin. 

 

I guess the dynamic range point is part of the answer but perhaps not the whole answer?
 

I’m looking for excuses to buy a monochrom….and highlight recovery is one of the (few) areas where I feel the M10-D isn’t top notch. 
 

[UliWer]

I don't think you really can compare the results for "blown highlights" from the M10 Monochrom to results from cameras with a traditional sensor, which reproduces colors.

If highlights on a monochrome sensor are really blown out there is no chance to restore anything even by reducing the highlights in you raw converter as far as as possible. They are blown out - full stop.

A sensor which reproduces colors leaves more headroom. E.g. the the blue spectrum of light may be blown out, but there may be some information from the red waves. With their help the raw converter will be able to restore information, so that your highlights won't appear as blown out.

Therefore there is a general recommendation to expose for the lights with a monochrome sensor to avoid blown out highlights. With a color sensor you may be able to expose more for the shadows since the risk of totally blown out highlights is lower. 

I don't know how the measurements of dynamic range fit into this. Though my advise would be not to give them too much importance: just look at the significant differences for the M10 and M10-P - both cameras have the same sensor. 

 

 

 

[mmradman]

Colour sensor have Bayer matrix (CFA - colour filter array) over the sensor so each pixel records luminance reduced by the overlapping filter, final colour image on pixel basis is derived from information derived from adjacent pixels, process referred to as interpolation.

In contrast the Monochrome sensor does not have any CFA so each pixel records luminance only, overexposed pixels record nothing and no recovery is possible. 

Dynamic range is ability of a sensor to RECORD light from dark to light in a specific range. Usually due to improved technology being utilised the value of dynamic range increases with newer generation of sensors.

edit

For me mono sensor is analogous to a slide (reversal) film, overexposing means blowing highlights, the overexposed slide

film emulsion is fully transparent with no detail. In contrast overexposed negative gets darker.

Edited May 2, 2021 by mmradman

[a.noctilux]

Using my experiences from color digital M for blown HL, I take some precautions for Monochroms.

 

Hints not to have bad surprise of "white HL".

- When possible, if time permits, I take the "best metering possible", using histogram then if required I bracket some more frames.

 - Another trick is using one of colored filters that I use, the most "matched color" of the main subject is a rough guide.

in this case I used to have on lens green filter when in summer nature (or yellow/orange in autumn) to make PP easier

- experimentation (sometimes with odd combinations ! ) is only way to success in monochrome

 

[UliWer]

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10 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

Another trick is using one of colored filters that I use, the most "matched color" of the main subject is a rough guide.

Not sure about this. If the object matches the filter's color it will become brighter - so increasing the risk of burned highlights.

Here an example (strong crop). I used a yellow filter; the graffiti's colour is "white" but the color has a yellowish tint: the brightest parts of the graffiti's letters are burned out and I think they would be still within the limits if I had left off the filter, as the light was measured from the surroundings which had much blue of a late winter afternoon.

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Edited May 3, 2021 by UliWer

[jaapv]

23 hours ago, lb1800 said:

Thanks a.noctilux.

I probably should have been more precise… I was referring to the ability to recover highlights that are significantly overexposed…an area where I understand the M10R outperforms the M10 by quite a margin. 

 

I guess the dynamic range point is part of the answer but perhaps not the whole answer?
 

I’m looking for excuses to buy a monochrom….and highlight recovery is one of the (few) areas where I feel the M10-D isn’t top notch. 
 

It is not the camera that should be top-notch - it is just a neutral tool. The user's exposure skills should be top-notch. If you want a camera that enables highlight recovery you need one with three colour channels - and a monochrome camera is not for you..

[250swb]

What are blown highlights? The light that makes you squint so you can't see anything, or the extended highlight range of a camera that makes any situation an artificial rendition of reality? If you want to fool reality I think it's possible now with the M10M, you only have to look at the posted photos on the forum that show 'white' is now banished because the sensor exceeds the range of the human eye so anything at the extremes becomes a shade of grey. Great if you like it, boring if you don't, but of course Photoshop is your saviour and anything can be made better.

[lb1800]

Thanks guys. Helpful information. 

[a.noctilux]

1 hour ago, UliWer said:

Not sure about this. If the object matches the filter's color it will become brighter - so increasing the risk of burned highlights.

Here an example (strong crop). I used a yellow filter; the graffiti's colour is "white" but the color has a yellowish tint: the brightest parts of the graffiti's letters are burned out and I think they would be still within the limits if I had left off the filter, as the light was measured from the surroundings which had much blue of a late winter afternoon.

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If It's me in this picture ...

for me the "main color" here is the brick wall so maybe orange or brown (to see in reality for choice of "matched color" filter to "render clearer" the brick and not the grafitis).

As I wrote the "matched filter " is to be chosen by experience and not haphazard.

Choice of main subject color can be harder.

Don't forget I also wrote "rough guide" and not  guide !

[a.noctilux]

Green filter on Monochrom 1

 

On Monochrom 246

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by a.noctilux

[Erato]

IMHO, the greater pixels size read much faster. And accept more photons within same timeframe.

Pixel size is matter, especially in the dim light scenarios.

One other thing is the threshold level and relevant algorithm are also matter as well.

 

For further references...

 

 

Ideal Maximums

For the ideal maximum ISO matchup on the M10M and M10-R I used the full range of ISO values, not just whole stops. Both cameras allow for 1/3-stop increments in ISO which is good since noise performance doesn't always change linearly. Here, the ideal maximum of the M10M was indeed at one of these settings. Below you can see that the M10 Monochrom at ISO 32000 matches up nicely with the M10-R at ISO 12500, resulting in a 1 and 1/3-stop improvement in low light ability in favor of the B&W camera. This difference is significant but isn't as sizeable as the 2-stops between the Q2M and Q2.

 

According to David's field test -- B&W ISO SHOWDOWN 2021: LEICA Q2 MONOCHROM / M10 MONOCHROM / Q2 / M10-R

https://www.reddotforum.com/content/2021/02/bw-iso-showdown-2021-leica-q2-monochrom-vs-m10-monochrom-vs-q2-vs-m10-r/

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Erato
adding more references

[Guest Nowhereman]

17 hours ago, 250swb said:

What are blown highlights? The light that makes you squint so you can't see anything, or the extended highlight range of a camera that makes any situation an artificial rendition of reality? If you want to fool reality I think it's possible now with the M10M, you only have to look at the posted photos on the forum that show 'white' is now banished because the sensor exceeds the range of the human eye so anything at the extremes becomes a shade of grey. Great if you like it, boring if you don't, but of course Photoshop is your saviour and anything can be made better.

Good point. With negative film, one exposed for the shadows and let the highlights fall where they may: one could rely on that because of the gentle fall-of the highlights that is the characteristic of negative film. With positive film, and digital, one would expose for the highlights and let the shadows fall where they may: with the proviso that, with digital, one could lift the shadows much more than one could with a print from positive film. And the trouble is that, often, people let the highlights get too dark.

In the image below, taken at noon in the tropics, with the light so blazingly bright that your eyes hurt when not wearing sunglasses, I exposed for the midtones (Zone V) to get the skin tones right and only toned the highlights down a bit, since I wanted to give a feeling of the blazing light. (I shot at ISO 3200 because I had been shooting in the dark light behind me, so dark that it felt like coming out of a cavern when walking towards the light in the back of this image.)

M10 | Summaron-M 1:5.6/28 | ISO 3200 | f/5.6 | 1/250 sec | Bangkok

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________________________
Frog Leaping photobook Edited May 4, 2021 by Nowhereman

[Jeff S]

User issue, not a camera problem, film or digital, Monochrom or color-based. Users blow highlights, or subdue highlights, and determine output rendering. The tools between the ears remain key, no matter the gear.

Jeff

[mmradman]

Suggest read the thread again, in depth explanation of issues in hand is provided.  Alternatively change hobby, there is more to photography than having specific make and model of camera.  All makes and models operate on the same principles and do same thing which is to capture image with available light, one camera doesn’t do it better than the other.

[mmradman]

Colour sensor - good chance of recovering blown highlights.

Monochrom sensor - zero chance of recovering blown highlights.

[Gobert]

Blown highlights cannot be recovered as they don’t contain information.

I do not have experience with the previous models, but with the M10M I have not experienced big problems with blown highlights.

It is just a matter of proper metering. But that applies for all M types (and other camera’s).

[SrMi]

2 hours ago, mmradman said:

Colour sensor - good chance of recovering blown highlights.

Monochrom sensor - zero chance of recovering blown highlights.

A blown channel is gone, you cannot recover it. What software can do in case of a color sensor is to try to reconstruct the blown channel using the other two channels. IMO, that often leads to wrong colors. You can 'recover' the areas with blown highlights manually using PS clone and heal tools (both monochrome and color sensors).

 

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[a.noctilux]

Lesson learned for me ...

blown HL would never be recovered, monochrom or not.

Decades ago with Kodachrome it was the case already for me.

So carefully metering when light is tricky is one of the way to do (with bracketing to be sure to have one frame workable 😇).

 

Whiting HL is ugly and deserves the picture, in most cases, for me.