GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[SJH]

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6 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Actually I don’t. Some people like a camera for prestige, others for functionality. There are no right or wrong reasons for liking a camera. I love the SL2 for its design and concept. I’m just highly disappointed in the lack of updates and execution in one of the most beautiful cameras to hold and use. 

I think you hit it on the head here, if you bought an SL2 and it works for you now as it did on the purchase date that’s really great of course. The problem for Leica though is that you’re history and the mirrorless market is a very different place 12 months on, clearly people are trading their SL2’s for something else and perhaps people who might of bought one 6 months ago (pre R5 and GFX100s) simply aren’t going to do so now. Therefore commercially it would appear that Leica has a rapidly shrinking potential market for the 47mb version whilst at the same time not inspiring confidence that it can bring out any meaningful updates.

If Panasonic introduce an S2R/S2 later this year, which they really need to do to remain in the sector, then this will further highlight this challenge. Significant reduction in orders for the SL2 and S1R probably equals revised investment strategy and perhaps a halt within the SL line and retrenching within the M and Q series. So the commercial decision making process probably hinges on just how much Leica’s engineers think they can get out out of the SL2 and the lack of any clear statements on firmware updates doesn’t inspire confidence in the same way that the SL2-S does at the moment. As a result people are beginning to vote with their feet, which other launch of a major Leica model has seen this number of used models on the market at this point or people discussing swapping them out for x & y? I’m also very much enjoying the perspective  control update for my M10M and M10R’s, however, much as I’m delighted surely updating the SL2’s ageing AF is perhaps more pressing with others pushing at the gates?

Equally though I’m not about to jump ship but I do want to see Leica really adopting a more visionary approach and not just relying on the old guard who will simply buy anything that looks good and has German engineering to mount their old M lenses on. I doubt many photographers think this will work well for very much longer in the even more fiercely contested mirrorless/SL2 segment of 2021 just a year on from launch.

Edited February 23, 2021 by SJH

[LD_50]

The stores I talked to had a lot of SL bodies available used, not SL2 bodies. 

The way these narratives are written it sounds like everyone is on the verge of selling off their system and buying into another one with every new camera release. I just don’t see that making any sense or being grounded in reality. 

I read the same stories regarding Nikon despite the fact they have a very nice camera and lens lineup in the Z series. It seems more a perception issue than a technical one.

Leica was never going to sell a lot of SL bodies or lenses with the prices where they are. Prices for the flagship bodies and lenses from Canon and Nikon have always been high, but the big sales numbers are at the low end and always have been. Sony is adopting that model now and it will never be Leica’s model. It works really well for Internet forums because owners of the low end models can argue about the high end ones they will never own. I saw this when I shot the high end Nikon cameras. They were used to make points in arguments on forums more than they were ever purchased and used to take photos. 

I do wish Leica would expand the SL series lens options, add PDAF, that they would reinvest in the S series, and that EVFs were available in an S and M body so I’m not saying Leica is doing everything perfectly. I do think though that these spec sheet comparisons are futile and the constant threat of everyone switching systems is way overblown. 

[LocalHero1953]

33 minutes ago, SJH said:

if you bought an SL2 and it works for you now as it did on the purchase date that’s really great of course. The problem for Leica though is that you’re history

This is the nub of the debate. All cameras are history after the next one is introduced. And if that means your photography is handicapped, then there's no argument - move on to the faster one, the higher res one, the one with more features. But if your photography is not kit-dependent, but dependent on what goes on between your eyes and your brain rather than what's in your hands, you have no need to make that choice. 

Edited February 23, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Alistairm]

There are so many good cameras out there at the moment, but I for one am rather bemused by the angst caused because:

1. Fuji releases a 100MP sensor mini-medium format camera (in a smaller form factor) but which is otherwise similar to an existing body (with a lower resolution EVF), and all of a sudden everything with less MP is questionable; while almost simultaneously

2. Leica releases a 24MP sensor in a camera body that is identical to the SL2, but which has more fairy dust, and suddenly the SL2 is no longer viable. 

Let the debate rage on. 

[beewee]

I do find it perplexing that people talk about dumping the SL2 along with all their L-glass because brand C/F/N/S has some new camera.

For myself, buying an interchangeable lens camera means buying into an ecosystem of lenses both existing and future releases, adapters, and also potential upgrade paths for bodies 5-10 years out. I don’t jump into a new system lightly and I evaluate a company’s historical performance as well as future company outlook, in addition to a given lens mount’s future outlook.

For example when I got into the Canon EF system in the 2000s, I did so because Canon was top of the heap when it came to CMOS sensor manufacturing, ASIC design, and also they were vertically integrated which means, not only do they make the sensors themselves but they make the machines that make the sensors. They had full control over their silicon which mean that they were best positioned to lead the pack as far as sensor technology goes and this was the case well into the 2010s. In addition, they had a large line up of lenses which met my needs.

When I decided to build out an M lens kit, I started with the M8.2 but only did so when I saw the M9 get released and its popularity would be able to make Leica a sustainable/growing company. If the M9 didn’t come along, I would never have gotten into the M system because the long term viability of the system was questionable at the time. Despite the vast amount of lenses from over 50 years of production, I needed digital bodies in the future so it was important to know that Leica would keep developing the M camera system and the M9 did that.

Most recently, with me now building an L-mount system, the primary reason I went ahead was because Sigma and Panasonic joined the L-mount alliance which meant that there would more options for native L-mount lenses and I wouldn’t necessarily need to pay $5+k per lens to build out a kit. I would be able to augment my kit with more affordable options where it made sense to do so. That and the fact that Sigma and Panasonic would bring on more customers mean there’s a better chance of the L-mount developing a critical mass of customers that would sustain lens/body development in the long term.

With this line of thinking in mind, just because another company has a new camera or lens that seem to be industry leading, this is inconsequential to me because I’m buying not a camera or a lens but an ecosystem. So unless I want to buy into yet another ecosystem, it’s really just noise in the short term. It’s not cheap to switch lens systems and if I’ve done my homework correctly before buying into a new ecosystem, then I do not expect to switch for the next 10+ years.

Edited February 24, 2021 by beewee

[aksclix]

48 minutes ago, beewee said:

I do find it perplexing that people talk about dumping the SL2 along with all their L-glass because brand C/F/N/S has some new camera.

For myself, buying an interchangeable lens camera means buying into an ecosystem of lenses both existing and future releases, adapters, and also potential upgrade paths for bodies 5-10 years out. I don’t jump into a new system lightly and I evaluate a company’s historical performance as well as future company outlook, in addition to a given lens mount’s future outlook.

For example when I got into the Canon EF system in the 2000s, I did so because Canon was top of the heap when it came to CMOS sensor manufacturing, ASIC design, and also they were vertically integrated which means, not only do they make the sensors themselves but they make the machines that make the sensors. They had full control over their silicon which mean that they were best positioned to lead the pack as far as sensor technology goes and this was the case well into the 2010s. In addition, they had a large line up of lenses which met my needs.

When I decided to build out an M lens kit, I started with the M8.2 but only did so when I saw the M9 get released and its popularity would be able to make Leica a sustainable/growing company. If the M9 didn’t come along, I would never have gotten into the M system because the long term viability of the system was questionable at the time. Despite the vast amount of lenses from over 50 years of production, I needed digital bodies in the future so it was important to know that Leica would keep developing the M camera system and the M9 did that.

Most recently, with me now building an L-mount system, the primary reason I went ahead was because Sigma and Panasonic joined the L-mount alliance which meant that there would more options for native L-mount lenses and I wouldn’t necessarily need to pay $5+k per lens to build out a kit. I would be able to augment my kit with more affordable options where it made sense to do so. That and the fact that Sigma and Panasonic would bring on more customers mean there’s a better chance of the L-mount developing a critical mass of customers that would sustain lens/body development in the long term.

With this line of thinking in mind, just because another company has a new camera or lens that seem to be industry leading, this is inconsequential to me because I’m buying not a camera or a lens but an ecosystem. So unless I want to buy into yet another ecosystem, it’s really just noise in the short term. It’s not cheap to switch lens systems and if I’ve done my homework correctly before buying into a new ecosystem, then I do not expect to switch for the next 10+ years.

Not if they feel the GFX 100s is THE ONE for the long run..  if they change their minds again after an SL3 is announced then they’re just doing what the manufacturers want.. 😁

I am keeping my SL2 while I wait for my 100s.. I take pleasure in shooting with multiple systems 

Edited February 24, 2021 by aksclix

[Mr.Q]

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For me part of what makes this hobby fun is buying new gear.  If I don't like the GFX system after using it, I'll sell it. No biggie. Folks are taking this too seriously. It's just camera gear.

[aksclix]

11 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

For me part of what makes this hobby fun is buying new gear.  If I don't like the GFX system after using it, I'll sell it. No biggie. Folks are taking this too seriously. It's just camera gear.

I personally love the gfx system.. a lot of people dig the film simulation too.. I too like the Leica colors better than Fuji’s but that doesn’t mean I don’t like the Fuji’s.. I could like apples and oranges.. both! 😌 

[Gavin Cato]

I'll be getting the gfx 100s and the 23mm & 80mm.

But my sl2's won't be going anywhere. The Fuji will only be for on holidays for personal use.

The Leica SL 50/1.4 ain't going anywhere!

[SJH]

For me there are many good points above which I too feel strongly about e.g. it's a system we're buying into etc so I'm not about to ditch all of my Leica SL gear. However, the key thread of my points is having bought into the SL line with the SL2 a year ago (and now the SL2-S), that I do feel bit let down by the lack of progress they made with the SL2's firmware with nothing on the horizon until the autumn some two years later. This is especially true after Panasonic updated all of their range and introduced the S5 with the update 'built in'.

I think the difficulty is that the SL2 is a very good camera but potentially looking like the Fuji XH1, the Nikon Z series when it first came out (lack of a second slot), Canon sticking with the 5D MkIII for too long etc. All the brands have them so it's about your entry point and I'm just a bit concerned that this model is Leica's one, that's all. The lenses are superb, the L mount has grown significantly over the last 12 months and I do enjoy also using my M lenses.

Leica is very very close but given the introduction of the range of this year camera's discussed above I do think they need some professional encouragement to really drive forward the enhancements for the SL2 and SL2-S as quickly as possible so that this fine line of camera's can continue into the future. Timing hasn't been kind to Leica in that regard but as the original OP's focus was the GFX100s, Fuji also had what many think wasn't their finest hour with the launch of the flagship (at the time) XH1 for example. They recovered but it meant a new range to sort out the mess and a massive hit for those that bought the camera at the time, just one example whereby it can go wrong for any of them not just Leica.

Edited February 24, 2021 by SJH

[Tailwagger]

16 hours ago, Mr.Q said:

For me part of what makes this hobby fun is buying new gear.  If I don't like the GFX system after using it, I'll sell it. No biggie. Folks are taking this too seriously. It's just camera gear.

Or perhaps not seriously enough. Some folks are short term investors, I'm a long term one.  Put another way, while it might seem boring, in this sphere, I prefer marriage to playing the field. But I can certainly accept that others prefer to maintain a level of youthful excitement over the maturity and patience required for a long term relationship. I too have succumbed to lust on occasion, but it hasn't been without its costs. 

From where I sit, investing 10's of thousands into a system is not done on a lark nor for a year or two. Despite some interest, I sat on the sidelines vis a vis the L-system for quite a while before buying in. When I did, it wasn't for the body, though I'll admit that aspects of the SL2 were a factor.  But at root, it was for the Summicrons without which I never would have jumped into the pool. I continue to love the way they draw and if Karbe is to be believed they are essentially future proof, at least in my lifetime.  If I have a complaint or concern, it's that while we've seen any number of new M lenses since the announcements of the wider L- primes, to date we've only just gotten the 28mm, heard nothing about the other two promised offerings nor has there been any further updates to the road map that I'm aware of.  It would be disappointing to me if we were never to see any  Leica produced primes over 90mm.  OTOH, Sigma seems 98% capable of filling the void, though they too have yet to do so. 

Similarly with Hasselblad, while I could potentially see myself selling off the X1Dii for an M10-M near term, I'll keep the glass. Assuming HB survives, it's not unreasonable to expect that an X2D with the same sensor will arrive at some point. Fuji is certainly doing a great job moving forward and leveraging its far broader user base.  Had I gone that way initially it's doubtful I'd be looking else where.  But as I continue to prefer the HB color and ergonomics to the Fujis, if I do feel a need to upgrade or reenter the mini-MF space, I'm perfectly happy to wait for a next gen XD, preferably a faster 50Mpx/IBIS one, rather than chase or change systems yet again. I'm sure there will be many magnificent captures made with the new GFXs, but the same can be said for any of these systems. 

Edited February 24, 2021 by Tailwagger

[bags27]

I picked up a used GFX R (50 mps) quite cheaply as folks were dumping them for the new 100 mps S (as folks did the SL for the SL2, M10 for M10R, etc).

It will take my Mamiya 7 lenses through a very clever adaptor, and I also enjoy my M glass on it (with some vignetting of the wides). Also Mamiya 645 glass, which is also excellent and very, very cheap. All good fun, though mainly for scanning MF negatives.

I don't know if I'll keep it. It's fun to stretch the brain and try to decode the absolutely bewildering UI. Here's an example:

You can't assign "format card" to one of the 5 (!) FN buttons or to your master menu. So, I asked folks on DPR how I can avoid going 3 menus deep every time I want to reformat. Answer: you just hold down the trash can for 3 seconds and press the back wheel. Me: But that's not in the documentation. Them: but everyone knows that. 

 

A true New England camera. If you have to ask directions, you shouldn't be here.

 

[aksclix]

49 minutes ago, bags27 said:

I picked up a used GFX R (50 mps) quite cheaply as folks were dumping them for the new 100 mps S (as folks did the SL for the SL2, M10 for M10R, etc).

It will take my Mamiya 7 lenses through a very clever adaptor, and I also enjoy my M glass on it (with some vignetting of the wides). Also Mamiya 645 glass, which is also excellent and very, very cheap. All good fun, though mainly for scanning MF negatives.

I don't know if I'll keep it. It's fun to stretch the brain and try to decode the absolutely bewildering UI. Here's an example:

You can't assign "format card" to one of the 5 (!) FN buttons or to your master menu. So, I asked folks on DPR how I can avoid going 3 menus deep every time I want to reformat. Answer: you just hold down the trash can for 3 seconds and press the back wheel. Me: But that's not in the documentation. Them: but everyone knows that. 

 

A true New England camera. If you have to ask directions, you shouldn't be here.

 

Pentax 645 glass could come cheap too.. especially the one macro 120mm f/4.. I have it and it’s pretty good! It’s because I used to have a 645z.. 

50 minutes ago, bags27 said:

You can't assign "format card" to one of the 5 (!) FN buttons or to your master menu. So, I asked folks on DPR how I can avoid going 3 menus deep every time I want to reformat. Answer: you just hold down the trash can for 3 seconds and press the back wheel. Me: But that's not in the documentation. Them: but everyone knows that. 

 

 

It’s still better than the shocking hidden menu that fixes your jittery dial problem in Hasselblad x1d 😬

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, bags27 said:

I picked up a used GFX R (50 mps)...

A true New England camera. If you have to ask directions, you shouldn't be here.

It's clearly time for an intervention.  

BTW, up here closer to the pole, once the snow flies there's no such thing as direction. If you asked for guidance, we'd just tell you to dial in a negative EV or two and wait for June.

[bags27]

1 hour ago, aksclix said:

Pentax 645 glass could come cheap too.. especially the one macro 120mm f/4.. I have it and it’s pretty good! It’s because I used to have a 645z.. 

Thanks. Considered the Pentax macro for it as well. I was already far along with Mamiya....

[frame-it]

Blazing Fast AF, even in Low light inside the shop

Lighter and smaller than my GFX50R

the EVF and screen  are really nice

Blazing Fast AF..oh i said that already.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

[aksclix]

1 hour ago, frame-it said:

Blazing Fast AF, even in Low light inside the shop

Lighter and smaller than my GFX50R

the EVF and screen  are really nice

Blazing Fast AF..oh i said that already.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

Can’t wait to get my hands on that machine! 
I wish it came in the gorgeous XT series silver/graphite color 😌 

[Jon Warwick]

6 hours ago, frame-it said:

Blazing Fast AF, even in Low light inside the shop

Lighter and smaller than my GFX50R

the EVF and screen  are really nice

Blazing Fast AF..oh i said that already.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

 

I like the large LCD on the top plate on the GFX100S; I can also envisage the handling is very well balanced with some of these GF lenses (like the 50mm or 63mm), which are shorter and lighter than the SL Summicrons.

[caissa]

On 2/24/2021 at 7:20 AM, Mr.Q said:

For me part of what makes this hobby fun is buying new gear.  If I don't like the GFX system after using it, I'll sell it. No biggie. Folks are taking this too seriously. It's just camera gear.

In the end it’s just money you burn. If you enjoy that it is maybe ok. But for many with less money it is just stupid.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[frame-it]

28 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

I like the large LCD on the top plate on the GFX100S; I can also envisage the handling is very well balanced with some of these GF lenses (like the 50mm or 63mm), which are shorter and lighter than the SL Summicrons.

the dials are customizable, once setup i found i only need to use the dial near the thumb, aperture from the lens.