GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[ZHNL]

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1 hour ago, thighslapper said:

Mighty impressed with the GFX100s and it's zoom lenses after a day or two of playing.

Actually lighter/no heavier than my SL2 or S1R with SL glass .... and better balanced as the grip is much better and lighter lenses make it less front heavy.

Ergonomically nicely laid out with a good balance of button/screen/menu accessible functions.

The great feature is the wide customisation available so I can replicate my S1R set up and workflow very easily so it doesn't feel like a 'new' system where I need to learn lots of different ways of doing things. The S1R is button heavy but very flexible, SL2 is button light and fiddling with the menus screen is a pain. Fuji seems to be in a happy place between the two. 

Image quality outstanding and noise absent/unobtrusive at the sort of levels I'd use in landscape photography. Despite the small battery the power usage seems very well controlled ..... unlike the abysmal SL2.

IBIS/OIS is great ..... can take handheld sharp images with the 45-100 @100 mm down to 1/4 sec.... which for such 100mpx MF is remarkable. 

Only downside so far is the EVF blackout time after taking a shot, which I can see would be an issue for those contemplating it for sports/wildlife. It remains to be seen whether the rather idiosyncratic range of the zooms proves to be a problem ..... and the absence of a very WA and longTele .... although I don't use either much. 

I can't understand how Fuji have managed to squeeze all this into a body that's essentially the same as both my premium 35mm cameras .... 

I agree with you regarding GFX. The build could use a little more attention, especially compare to Leica. AFon button is horrible. The paint over metal also feel too thin to me. My camera bottom has already show sign of paint off less than a week use. Actually, other than impressive top screen and best in class LCD tilt function, this camera is a step down from 50s in term of build quality. 
 

menu is as confusion as Panasonic I would say.  there is lots of hidden features not in manual require time to figure it out. Customer option up to 6 is way overkill. Who ever remember those LOL. I fully agree with replica of current system setting for easy transition. Having PMAS dial, FUJI has this in mind to attract FF users. 
 

handhold indeed feel slightly better than SL2 but not as good as X1D or Leica S. SL2’s grip design is quite dumb IMHO. Make it feel heavier than it is.  
 

I feel Leica’s menu and control is still the best even with some stubbornness.(lack of flexibility) this is one of high point Leica still hold cross their family. 

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[setuporg]

So the funny thing, at the end of the day SL2 produces wonderful photos, the lenses are overall smaller and if you use M really smaller and after the novelty of the GFX wears out it will still be the case -- 50MP is more than enough for the majority of use cases, the AF is good enough ditto, and you don't need to go get yet another weird kit to enjoy photography.

[thighslapper]

1 hour ago, helged said:

Thanks for the update! One question - in aperture mode, how long is the longest shutter speed (not involving bulb)?

Looks to be 30 secs. 

I've set it up to use aperture setting on the lens itself and Manual (M) with ISO on the front wheel and shutter speed on the back wheel. In M you have shutter speeds up to 60 minutes. That seemed to be the most logical solution for landscape and what I generally do. It's nice to be able to manually set aperture on a lens for a change !

[padam]

48 minutes ago, setuporg said:

50MP is more than enough for the majority of use cases, the AF is good enough ditto

Fuji seems to agree with these as well, as in a few months' time they will present the GFX50S II, presumably the new and refined body with IBIS coupled to the older sensor and AF system, but for even less money (and also even more depreciation on the 50R or 50S, which still offer the same image quality), so putting a bit more pressure on FF.

[thighslapper]

2 hours ago, ZHNL said:

I agree with you regarding GFX. The build could use a little more attention, especially compare to Leica. AFon button is horrible. The paint over metal also feel too thin to me. My camera bottom has already show sign of paint off less than a week use. Actually, other than impressive top screen and best in class LCD tilt function, this camera is a step down from 50s in term of build quality. 

I agree ... build quality of both body and lenses is not a patch on Leica and also a bit inferior to Panasonic, but the whole package does give quite a weight saving. It appears to be 'robust enough' for general use and the weather sealing inspires more confidence than Panasonic where they basically say it's 'splash and dust' protected but then tell you not to get it wet ....  (in fact I dropped mine + SL 24-90 in Blea Tarn and it worked fine despite being submerged for a minute or so).

The first thing I did was set back button AF to the AEL button which is thumb friendly. The badly placed  AF-On button has been assigned something else that I rarely use. 

Leica make to a standard and set the price accordingly ..... I get the impression Fuji built this to a price point to compete directly with FF, so I'm not surprised a few corners have been cut. The final product is still remarkable in terms of what it can do for the price.

OK, 102mpx is overkill, but for landscape photography the ability to crop drastically with no penalty is very helpful .... and the increase in Dynamic Range with ability to pull out detail from the shadows without compromising colour fidelity is a real advantage. Having to mess around less with grad filters or HDR from bracketed exposures is another bonus..... in fact the sliders in LR now don't allow enough adjustment to cope with the highlight and shadow detail that is present in the RAW files.

For me high mpx MF is worth a trial ..... and I'm afraid the only way to find out if the change and expense is worth it is to actually try for it for a reasonable period yourself, rather than pontificate on reviews, specifications and other peoples opinions ....

Edited March 26, 2021 by thighslapper

[ZHNL]

36 minutes ago, thighslapper said:

I agree ... build quality of both body and lenses is not a patch on Leica and also a bit inferior to Panasonic, but the whole package does give quite a weight saving. It appears to be 'robust enough' for general use and the weather sealing inspires more confidence than Panasonic where they basically say it's 'splash and dust' protected but then tell you not to get it wet ....  (in fact I dropped mine + SL 24-90 in Blea Tarn and it worked fine despite being submerged for a minute or so).

The first thing I did was set back button AF to the AEL button which is thumb friendly. The badly placed  AF-On button has been assigned something else that I rarely use. 

Leica make to a standard and set the price accordingly ..... I get the impression Fuji built this to a price point to compete directly with FF, so I'm not surprised a few corners have been cut. The final product is still remarkable in terms of what it can do for the price.

OK, 102mpx is overkill, but for landscape photography the ability to crop drastically with no penalty is very helpful .... and the increase in Dynamic Range with ability to pull out detail from the shadows without compromising colour fidelity is a real advantage. Having to mess around less with grad filters or HDR from bracketed exposures is another bonus..... in fact the sliders in LR now don't allow enough adjustment to cope with the highlight and shadow detail that is present in the RAW files.

For me high mpx MF is worth a trial ..... and I'm afraid the only way to find out if the change and expense is worth it is to actually try for it for a reasonable period yourself, rather than pontificate on reviews, specifications and other peoples opinions ....

I am with you again. 
 

the AFon button location is one thing but it is designed too shallow and so was ‘pushing’ feeling and finger feedback. 
 

There is lots of rooms around the body but their dials are general small and lack of quality. Somehow, they changed metal paint job from 50s to 100s. I don’t understand why change something works perfectly. Maybe they are trying everything as hard as they can to hit a price point. 
 

I have to say they succeed. You can’t have everything. In digital age, machine will worth one half to two 3rd within a year no matter how premium they build. 
 

Overall, this is the most exciting camera introduced in past few years to me. It worth to build a kit around. I will keep OEM kit minimal for landscape and travel and mainly adapt FF lens for daily use. 80lux and 100AEM offer native like coverage. S glasses can be shoot wide open, again for daily use.
 

Body come and go, but Leica glasses are immoral  I am happy. 

[aksclix]

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3 hours ago, ZHNL said:

Overall, this is the most exciting camera introduced in past few years to me. 

Absolutely.. the craze with pre-orders says it all

Would be interesting to find the pre-order stats for Canon R5, Sony a1 etc in comparison 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

18 hours ago, SJH said:

Just a thought but would there really be a need to move to a GFX100s as some have done (or are going to) if the SL series adopted the same strategy as Sigma is doing with the first L camera mount to have PDAF and the Sony 61mb sensor. Who knows what could be done with the SL2-S’s sensor given it’s a 24mb Sony but for the SL2 it would need the launch of the SL3.

Interesting times and whilst I’m not rushing out to buy the fp L nevertheless here we have the first L Mount product capable of using PDAF with our Leica glass and at 61mb, it moves the goalposts forward for Leica in terms of remaining with Panasonic or taking Sigma’s route. Imagine a Q3 with this sensor and PDAF for example and a ‘Leica makeover’.

For me, definitely. In my usage case there's no issue with the SL2 AF. It's fast and accurate in AFS and that's all I need. It also does very well in AFS in low light, provided you give it an edge to focus on. AF is not the issue. An SL3 with this sensor isn't going to be revolutionary for me. I already get the shot. The SL2 doesn't hold me back. Don't get me wrong. I'll embrace any improvements in an SL3 but I won't trade PDAF for other issues like ultimate IQ or handling or interface. I bought the SL2 well aware of it's limitations and I bought it because I worked out those limitations wouldn't limit me. 

Obviously I haven't tried an FP-L. But I have tested (but don't own) the A7R4 and it may have the resolution but it doesn't have the image quality of the larger sensor. The colour isn't as good and falls apart relatively quickly at higher ISOs. The thing is a hot pixel mess at 3 minute exposures. I have yet to see a 135 format sensor that matches the 4-5 year old 44x33 51MP sensor and newer 102MP sensor. Not even the SL2 with high res shot. Especially over the 24MP range which is too small a number for the sizes I print to.

Plus we don't yet know how good this sensor is. Maybe it's a close relative of the one in the A7R4, or not. It might be a mess. It might have banding issues or a 3 inch thick filter stack and AA filter like a frosted window. I do know the SL2 is ever so slightly better with acuity than the S1R. A simple thing like the cover glass can make a difference. And we haven't got to the usability, menus, handling, electronics shutter issues etc, etc....

The GFX100S is more than PDAF focusing and so far I'm not seeing a game changing improvement over the SL2. Even today doing a simple portrait at 5-6 feet from the subject the 100S decided to have some fun with its eye focus. But what I am seeing is a camera with a remarkably wide shooting envelope that is really really good in some areas and good enough in many others. A far wider user range than any miniMF camera I've seen before. I've always looked at my larger sensor cameras as specialists and my 135 format cameras as the swiss army knives. The GFX100S is changing that perception, drastically.

Gordon

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11 hours ago, aksclix said:

Absolutely.. the craze with pre-orders says it all

 

interesting post from the other site

https://www.getdpi.com/forum/index.php?threads/phase-4150-double-exposure-vs-fuji-100s-single-exposure-shadow-recovery.70825/

[Alistairm]

I'm shot an U15 cricket grand final with the GFX100S and the 250 with TC yesterday. 

I put 4,172 frames on the camera, in hot sun. It didn't miss a beat. One battery change (and used 4 x 256GB cards for the RAW files). Each RAW file is about 200MB. 

Bright light with fast shutter speeds and ISO 1000 or below for all shots, so no dynamic range stress testing... but I'm blown away by the sheer resolution. I mean, you can easily zoom in and pick out stiching in the players' clothing, every hair on a player's arm, the very fine grain in the wood on the cricket bats, the individual stiches in the seam on the ball and so on. And all in a package that is small enough and easy to handhold for hours, with effective image stabalisation and decent AF. 

While cricket is a "burst" sport, rather than one with continuous action (you hold the shutter as the bowler approaches the crease and until the shot is finished), the GFX100S was fine for this sort of action and I barely even noticed the buffer. I filled it a few times, but the camera empties it quickly and doesn't lock up while doing so. 

The resolution of this sensor with these Fuji lenses in mind-boggling. I know many of us posting here cross shop (or own all of) the latest and greatest cameras being made (eg  SL2, SLS-2 M10M, M10R, X1D), but in my early experience the Fuji 100MP package just blows them all away in terms of producing super clean and super high resolution files (and all in a reasonably sized body packed with excellent technology). 

As much as I love my SL lenses, increasingly I think that the key differentiator for Leica will continue to be the M lenses, which are small, fast, manually focus to perfection and are optically outstanding without needing a software correction crutch. They really do make for the ability to run a very small setup that is ultra high quality, and which I haven't seen matched by another manufacturer yet.

In terms of outright IQ, the SL2 just can't quite keep up with the larger format sensors, despite the wonderful lenses. I know it's unfair comparing the Fuji and Hassleblad setups to Leica's 35mm format instead of the S... but the S is just so stupidly priced, the lenses have been so plagued by motor failures and they've missed the mirrorless boat, so until Leica at least delivers a product to justify the price point people will continue to cross-shop the SL series with the XCD and GFX. 

I still much prefer the Leica SL2 setup, handling and ergonomics (including the gorgeous EVF), but having used the GFX100S for a few weeks now I no longer think any sensible argument can be sustained about where the best image quality is... for now it is with Fuji. Which is also by far the cheapest system. 

[Mr.Q]

Excellent post Alistairm. After a month with the GFX, the SL2/X1D are starting to become a distant memory.  It's just too easy to get super clean images with the GFX.

[Jon Warwick]

15 hours ago, Alistairm said:

As much as I love my SL lenses, increasingly I think that the key differentiator for Leica will continue to be the M lenses, which are small, fast, manually focus to perfection and are optically outstanding without needing a software correction crutch. They really do make for the ability to run a very small setup that is ultra high quality, and which I haven't seen matched by another manufacturer yet.

......

I still much prefer the Leica SL2 setup, handling and ergonomics (including the gorgeous EVF), but having used the GFX100S for a few weeks now I no longer think any sensible argument can be sustained about where the best image quality is... for now it is with Fuji. Which is also by far the cheapest system. 

I feel like I've perhaps concluded similar thoughts to you.

I had already part-exchanged the SL2 when I got the GFX100S. Now, I'm finding I am so completely delighted with the files from the GFX100S that I've decided I'm no longer hedging my bets with the SL system by keeping an SL lens, and so will be selling my SL 50 APO too.

I've spent years looking for an image quality from digital that I personally liked for my large prints ....I've been through various Ms, been through the SL2, extensively tried the S006 and S007 ....and I've finally found what I was seeking for very large prints via 100mp medium format.

I keep smiling at the files the GFX100S produces, I find them so flexible to process and so pleasing in their rendering (to my eyes being both ultra detailed due to 100mp, yet smooth and gentle at the same time).  With this image quality I'm seeing, my 5x4 camera might well be put on ice too.

For Leica, my focus will remain M, and in the immediate term skewed to M analogue .....for portraits to 20-30" wide, I still find my Leica M7, M 75mm Summarit, a roll of Ektachrome and a drum scan does a wonderful job in capturing a flatteringly realistic look.

[chrismuc]

The GFX100s offers a unique package: 100 MP with 4433 sensor and IBIS in a SL size body at reasonable price, with fast and very accurate PDAF (banding issue resolved), the GF 23/ 30/ 45/ 63/ 110/ 120 Macro/ 250 lenses all have Otus/ SL/ S lens level IQ at comparable apertures - for a fraction of cost. The new GF 80f1.7 has some LoCA flaws if not stopped down but provides Noctilux glow and bookeh so also has its strengths.

Plus: With the Steelsring EF-GF adapter one can use either for example the Sigma Art 40f1.4, 85f1.4, 105f1.4, 135f1.8 ultra fast lenses which basically all cover the 4433 sensor or in 35mm mode you get 61 MP (like using a A7RIV, but better high ISO) with for example the long Canon primes/zooms or Sigma C zoom lenses for birding or other usage. I would say, currently no other high end camera system is so versatile and offers so much value for the money.

[stout_trapdoor9]

A one week followup I wrote to my previous GFX100S article.  EXECSUM is below:

1. Is it too heavy for me to carry around? No. But my shoulder is feeling it after a day of walking.
2. Is the sensor capable in the low light multiple city light pictures I love so much? Yes.
3. Is the IBIS good enough for me to dispense with the tripod? Yes – in most situations.
4. Is it fun to use or at least not a chore? A qualified yes. Not a chore, but not super amazing funtastic.
5. Is the B&W output with Capture One good enough to make me stop thinking about getting a Leica Q2M or Leica M10M? Undecided, but leaning towards no.
6. Do the advantages of the large sensor outweigh the significantly larger footprint? This question needs to be qualified with respect to – compared to what? Compared to a Nikon Z7, yes. Compared to a Q2…

The full article link is below. I don't think I have any interest in the SL2/SL2-S anymore as they are just as heavy and for the same weight have a smaller sensor.  Still thinking about that Q2M though.

https://darkisthenightforall.wordpress.com/2021/03/28/gfx-100s-week-1-update/

 

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5 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

Is the B&W output with Capture One good enough to make me stop thinking about getting a Leica Q2M or Leica M10M?

interesting..ive made some beautiful b&w conversions with my 50R, using silverfx

[Simone_DF]

9 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

 I don't think I have any interest in the SL2/SL2-S anymore as they are just as heavy and for the same weight have a smaller sensor. 

True that, but it applies only to camera bodies. The thing that is holding me off from getting a GFX straight away is the size of lenses. A couple of them are small, like the 65mm, but the vast majority are bigger and heavier than SL lenses, especially if compared to the new Sigmas.

[hansvons]

10 hours ago, stout_trapdoor9 said:

Is the B&W output with Capture One good enough to make me stop thinking about getting a Leica Q2M or Leica M10M?

It depends what you want to achieve. B&W sensors work with yellow, red and orange filters well, colour sensors not so much. But to some extend you can mimic such filtering in Capture One. Below a (somewhat extreme) shot with a setup that mimics a red filter on B&W sensors, and the same shot in B&W with typical contrast adjustments.

Sl2-S 24-90, 28mm, F8

 

 

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[Succisa75]

On 3/26/2021 at 5:38 PM, SJH said:

I agree - here though we have a Sigma with PDAF and 61mb launched roughly at the same time as the SL2-S which also has a Sony sensor. Where I was going was that why not just do a ‘Sigma’ and therefore launch future SL’s and Q’s with PDAF which would be the icing on the cake for many around what are brilliant camera’s. Sigma could do it with someone else’s sensor for the L mount lenses so why not Leica at roughly the same time

Sigma's AF on the new FP L is not much better than whats out there currently for contrast based systems.  it's still in preproduction but so far the hit rate on moving subjects is worse than the Lumix S1 and S1R

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[aksclix]

8 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

True that, but it applies only to camera bodies. The thing that is holding me off from getting a GFX straight away is the size of lenses. A couple of them are small, like the 65mm, but the vast majority are bigger and heavier than SL lenses, especially if compared to the new Sigmas.

Of course they’re bigger.. MF vs FF.. bigger glass! The gf 250mm is 1400g vs Leica 90-280 1800g.. most other lenses are around 1000g or lesser.. even the Leica 24-90 is 1140g.. heavier than most gf lenses. 
 

on the 100s body, most of these lenses feel well balanced to me.. 

Edited March 29, 2021 by aksclix

[aksclix]

13 minutes ago, Priaptor said:

First off, the GF250 is 200mm equivalent and a prime and not a zoom like the Leica 90-280 and similarly the 24-90 is a zoom. Not sure what the point of the skewed comparisons but they aren't really comparable. Long and short, SL lenses are heavy by 35mm standards and GF lenses are going to be heavier on average than most 35mm standards. If anyone is buying either of these systems because of "low" weight all I can do is laugh. Yeah, there are ways to make each "lightweight" on a relative  basis but come on

I am aware which ones are prime and which ones aren’t.. those were the comparisons in terms of weight at max focal lengths offered.. 

I have both SL2 and GFX 100s and a variety of lenses and I intend to keep them both. 
and you can laugh all you want but people have their preferences and they are allowed to choose what fits them best.. your laughter won’t make a difference to them