GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Simone_DF]

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1 hour ago, SJH said:

I couldn’t agree with you more but equally it would appear not saying anything regarding the SL2, alongside the press release for the SL-S’s major firmware update for the spring, strikes me also as commercial suicide. If you could do deliver for the SL2 as well surely you’d say so there and then?

Leica never announce firmware updates in advance. They did it with the SL2-S because they are marketing it as a video camera, but the camera is not ready for it yet and will be only after this firmware is released. This is a bad marketing decision imho, it'd have been better to wait until the firmware is finalized and release the camera in spring and the SL2 update a couple of months later. But I assume they didn't want to lose christmas sales. 

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[meerec]

6 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Tried the 907x recently. Stunning camera but it’s best suited for lenses 80mm and wide

I own one with 80 and 45p, grip and OVF. 
love it more than SL2, which by the way has developed sticky buttons on the left of the LCD and has been sent to Wetzlar German doctors ...

[LocalHero1953]

17 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Leica never announce firmware updates in advance. They did it with the SL2-S because they are marketing it as a video camera, but the camera is not ready for it yet and will be only after this firmware is released. This is a bad marketing decision imho, it'd have been better to wait until the firmware is finalized and release the camera in spring and the SL2 update a couple of months later. But I assume they didn't want to lose christmas sales. 

Your last comment may be right, and it is unusual for Leica to say so much about upcoming firmware. But we shouldn't underplay the impact of covid. the timelines of all the many elements that go into making a new camera have to come to the same point: when it goes on sale. But covid could put any of them out of sync: supply chains, assembly, firmware, testing. Then it just becomes a marketing decision: do they wait for everything lined up, or send the camera out with some aspects not quite as intended. I have no inside knowledge - but the past year hasn't been quite normal.

Edited February 1, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Then it just becomes a marketing decision: do they wait for everything lined up, or send the camera out with some aspects not quite as intended.

It's a financial decision. The camera is ready to ship, sitting in warehouses. Some additional software features are still in development, which means that they were de-prioritized while the software team worked on more important features. What would you do, wait 6 months and release a dated camera? Those features were de-prioritized for a reason. Leica knows that only a few users want them.

None of this is new (it's how almost all software is developed), but Sony really made it "normal" in the camera business. Some of their promised/misbehaving features aren't delivered/fixed for a long time, often after a replacement model has been announced. I don't think that they key question is "should they release cameras that will receive further development?", rather it's "how should they communicate upcoming changes?"

With the SL2 and SL2-S, Leica has announced some features that will be released later, along with a timeline. I think that's fair; keep the customer informed, let them decide.

You can make an analogy with mechanical cameras.  Should Leica have waited for the "single-stroke feature" to be ready before releasing the M3? The key difference is that software features can be added to existing cameras at very little cost. You can upgrade a double-stroke M3 to single-stroke, but it's a much more complicated process.

[frame-it]

2 hours ago, meerec said:

has developed sticky buttons on the left of the LCD

interesting, someone else had a similar sticky button problem with an M10

[Jeff S]

I bought the SL2 because, after testing it along with several other systems, it met my primary needs and preferences. Funny how that works. No surprises, no expectations other than remaining reliable, and any FW updates that do arrive (e.g., the latest regarding linear manual focus) are icing on the cake.

New cameras and lenses from Leica and other companies are of no immediate consequence or need for me, especially not for the millions of extra pixels offered.  They don’t stop my terrific gear from working. It also wasn’t that long ago that ASA 400 film was plenty fast enough for making decent pics and prints. Interesting times.

Jeff

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Leica never announce firmware updates in advance. They did it with the SL2-S because they are marketing it as a video camera, but the camera is not ready for it yet and will be only after this firmware is released. This is a bad marketing decision imho, it'd have been better to wait until the firmware is finalized and release the camera in spring and the SL2 update a couple of months later. But I assume they didn't want to lose christmas sales. 

They did it with the announcement of pixel-shift for SL2.

[SJH]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Leica never announce firmware updates in advance. They did it with the SL2-S because they are marketing it as a video camera, but the camera is not ready for it yet and will be only after this firmware is released. This is a bad marketing decision imho, it'd have been better to wait until the firmware is finalized and release the camera in spring and the SL2 update a couple of months later. But I assume they didn't want to lose christmas sales. 

I agree but with the SL2-S they did and of course pixel shift for the SL2, so having done that it does seem daft to then not say anything about a firmware update being applied to both the SL2-S and the SL2 in the Spring. After all the SL-2S update is going to include further AF improvements that imply that they will take it even further ahead of the SL2 today.

I think what finally pushed me over the edge with swapping my SL2 for and SL2-S was the fact that the S1R had better AF come November and was nearly half the price with the offer of the 50mm 1.4 lens thrown in (UK pre-Christmas deal). I can fully understand that if you're a landscape shooter then the SL2's AF isn't quite as important but if you aren't already invested in the SL system or M lenses you can bet that many people are looking straight to the GFX100s.

[beewee]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

It's a financial decision. The camera is ready to ship, sitting in warehouses. Some additional software features are still in development, which means that they were de-prioritized while the software team worked on more important features. What would you do, wait 6 months and release a dated camera?

This is probably what Zeiss did with their ZX1. It was interesting when it was announced. It was obsolete before they started shipping them.

[P1505]

I wonder how many dissatisfied SL2 owners were perfectly happy before the announcement? And I wonder how many that switch and fall in love will find all the same faults when the Canon Superpixel 900 arrives with a 190mp sensor and quad CF Express slots?

 

[setuporg]

I find the AF speed argument against SL2 raised by the ascent of FGX quite funny.  Compared to all other Leicas, epsecially the M, the AF speed of SL2 ist fantastisch.:). Surely if you want fast AF you need a Canikon.  I mean this forum's Code of Conduct expressly prohibits fast AF as an argument.:)

In any case, what's interesting is that X1D slow AF seems to be not cast in stone for mirrorless MF cameras.  If GFX AF is much faster, it can be actually a winner.  While SL2 AF is superfast and sufficient for most real life outside of sports, the X1D AF could be painfully slow and even for power amateurs misses kids running or on a swing.  The S is much faster due to its real distance-scale mechanical drives.  If GFX can match it, that would be a serious difference.

[ZHNL]

I don’t feel 100s is SL2 competitor at all. Unless it is a game that you have 6k to spend, which one you will get LOL

[P1505]

SL2 and a month travelling if that’s the game

[SJH]

From my point of view I won’t be buying a GFX100s or CanSon for example, I just felt the SL2 was the first time I felt slightly let down by Leica, every other camera and lens I have from them I adore.

I’m really not expecting R5 or A1 performance or what went before with say the A9, I’d just like it not to be on the bottom of the high end FF sector behind Panasonic - I don’t really think this is a big ask for a £5k product. Don’t get me wrong I love going ‘manual’ with my M’s (and i even shoot film with my MP) but when you put down that sort of money in a highly competitive market you expect something that doesn’t feel like it belongs to previous generations in terms of AF and high ISO performance.

I also want Leica to be successful so come on guys you’re only a significant firmware upgrade away with the SL2.

[frame-it]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

I find the AF speed argument against SL2 raised by the ascent of FGX quite funny.  Compared to all other Leicas, epsecially the M, the AF speed of SL2 ist fantastisch.:). Surely if you want fast AF you need a Canikon.  I mean this forum's Code of Conduct expressly prohibits fast AF as an argument.:)

In any case, what's interesting is that X1D slow AF seems to be not cast in stone for mirrorless MF cameras.  If GFX AF is much faster, it can be actually a winner.  While SL2 AF is superfast and sufficient for most real life outside of sports, the X1D AF could be painfully slow and even for power amateurs misses kids running or on a swing.  The S is much faster due to its real distance-scale mechanical drives.  If GFX can match it, that would be a serious difference.

have you tried a GFX50R/S ?

Edited February 1, 2021 by frame-it

[Alistairm]

If I was "starting fresh" I would find the Fuji product line compelling.  There are several mini-MF bodies to choose from that have the latest tech incorporated, a compact and atttractive APS-C interchangable lens camera line up and an excellent fixed lens compact camera. Add to the mix the price point, the excellent tech all around, attractive (to me at least) vintage classical styling of the bodies, an excellent selection of lenses and Fuji's impeccable record of "colour science" dating back to its roots as a film manufacturer. I also like that Fuji is a corporate powerhouse with 87 years of corporate history, and is diversified into several sectors so likely to be very financially stable moving forward, perhaps moreso than most other camera makers. And there are things about Fuji's approach to photography that gel with me - for example, I'm intrigued and would love to try the hybrid EVF/OVF, especially with the ability to "overlay" digital information like an exposure preview onto an optical rangefinder style view. 

That said, I am more than happy with my current active lineup of SL2/SL2-S, and M10R/M10M. I still use the X1D as well, although very seldom since the SL2 arrived. I mulled over picking up a Fuji, but ended up deciding I'm happy to wait and hope for an X2D to arrive one day and let the Hasselblad gear rest, rather than "system shop" in between product cycles. For me, the Leica and Hasselblad menu systems and handling suit me better, and I like the rendering of their lenses too. Also, I like having the leaf shutters as a point of difference on the Hasselblad system.

On the subject of AF, on Christmas Day last year, I had the SL2 (with 50 f/1.4), X1D (with zoom) and M10R (with ASPH 35 f/1.4) around the house. I took photos with all of them, but about 90% of the photos were with the M10R... including of kids unwrapping presents, chasing dogs, playing cricket and so forth. So apparently the AF isn't as important to me as I might have imagined! My hit rate on moving subjects is certainly higher with AF,  but on most cameras made in the last 10 years I can barely recall having an out of focus shot due to failure to acquire or track a subject, even with birds and sport (admittedly using a DSLR for the former). I find the new face detection malarky complete wizardry. I should probably try one of these Sony bodies and see what else I'm missing out on, but technology improvements with IBIS and EVF are much more important to me than better AF. Even on the X1D, which is slow to AF, the acquisition of focus is very accurate. 

It's terrific that Fuji has released a compact 100MP mini-MF body and the more compelling offerings we have from different manufacturers the better. If Fuji puts pressure on other manufacturers to keep improving, we all win. And I'll be watching closely to see how the hybrid EVF/OVF and overlay technology continues to evolve. 

[setuporg]

7 minutes ago, frame-it said:

have you tried a GFX50R/S ?

I was a Fuji adept up to and including X-Pro2, and recently even TX-2 (Xpan II:), but have not tried GFX at all as I was attracted to X1D from the get-go.  What is instructive about the GFX50R/S?

[frame-it]

1 minute ago, setuporg said:

 but have not tried GFX at all

ok..everything makes sense now 😇

 

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[setuporg]

6 minutes ago, Alistairm said:

It's terrific that Fuji has released a compact 100MP mini-MF body and the more compelling offerings we have from different manufacturers the better. If Fuji puts pressure on other manufacturers to keep improving, we all win. And I'll be watching closely to see how the hybrid EVF/OVF and overlay technology continues to evolve. 

Alistair -- very well put.  What attracted me to Fuji was the original X100, with its hybrid OVF/EVF, and kept me going through X-Pro2 until the M10 arrived.  If Fuji makes a GXF version with an OVF, now that would be a game changer.  Until then, Leica S is impossible to beat.  Also the megapixel race makes keeping up a futile endeavor with diminishing returns and simply reinforces my inclination to use the S 007 more for all of its amazing lenses, making S3 less pressing, counterintuitively.

[setuporg]

2 minutes ago, frame-it said:

ok..everything makes sense now 😇

 

Could you be less mysterious?:). My inclination was that GFX was big and ugly compared with X1D.  Both the 50 and the 100.  The 100S is supposedly less so...  Am I missing something?