Is the king of bokeh lens also a sharp lens?

[lct]

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All pre-asph 35/2 Summicrons have soft corners at f/2 AFAIK. For sharper results there, better choose a Summicron 35/2 asph. The center of the frame can be decently sharp though. Here with v4 at f/2, FF and crop.
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-352-v4/i-L2rDfxJ/0/56494767/X4/M1020064_sips-X4.jpg
https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M11-Leica-352-v4/i-g69phKN/0/9e07aa2f/X4/M1020064_crop-X4.jpg

 

Edited July 18, 2023 by lct

[hdmesa]

3 hours ago, lct said:

All pre-asph 35/2 Summicrons have soft corners at f/2 AFAIK. For sharper results there, better choose a Summicron 35/2 asph...

The ASPH suffers some sharpness loss in the midframe (on the diagonal between center and corners) at f/2, which to me is worse than soft corners. I prefer the natural sharpness falloff from the center that I get from my v4 at f/2. If someone wants sharpness across the frame at f/2, the 35 APO from Voigtlander or Leica would be a more logical alternative.

Edited July 18, 2023 by hdmesa

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[lct]

18 minutes ago, hdmesa said:

The ASPH suffers some sharpness loss in the midframe (on the diagonal between center and corners) at f/2 [...]

I don't recall this on my asph v1 from 2010. Would you have a picture showing this loss by chance?

[hdmesa]

1 hour ago, lct said:

I don't recall this on my asph v1 from 2010. Would you have a picture showing this loss by chance?

They were throw-away shots, and I've long since deleted them. If you get a chance, see if you see the same results – I believe this lens is known for softer midframe at f/2. To test, keep the same composition (tripod), focus center and take a shot, then put the focus point midway between center and the corner, focus there and take another shot, then repeat for the corner. The center and corner should be similar in sharpness, but the midframe will be softer.

Edit: found one example I did save after all: 35 ASPH v1 at f/2 on the SL2-S at about 1.5m distance. Screenshots below from C1. First image is to show placement of focus point, which was on the thermometer device on the coffee table.

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Left image = center / Right image = midframe

Edited July 18, 2023 by hdmesa

[lct]

I must have done tests like this in the past. I'll try to retrieve them but all in all my asph v1 is sharper at f/2 than both my German and Canadian v4. It has also less focus shift, curiously enough.

[lct]

17 hours ago, hdmesa said:

Edit: found one example I did save after all: 35 ASPH v1 at f/2 on the SL2-S at about 1.5m distance. Screenshots below from C1. First image is to show placement of focus point, which was on the thermometer device on the coffee table.

I have no experience with SL cameras but i did not notice this issue on my M cameras so far. The snap below shows rather well what my 35/2 asph v1 can do at f/2 on the M240.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M240-Summicron-352-asph-v1/i-MhpMcQQ/0/4ef9ff93/X4/M2401779_sips-X4.jpg

[hdmesa]

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18 hours ago, lct said:

I must have done tests like this in the past. I'll try to retrieve them but all in all my asph v1 is sharper at f/2 than both my German and Canadian v4. It has also less focus shift, curiously enough.

Yes, my ASPH v1 was definitely sharp at f/2, it was just less sharp when focusing on a subject in the midframe versus the center. If you have a central subject, this isn't much of an issue. But if you put the subject's head in the midframe, their eyes may not be as sharp as you would like when focused there. But overall, the ASPH was a great lens while I had it since I shot it mostly on film stopped down from f/5.6 to f/11. Really great look on film with regard to contrast and sharpness.

1 hour ago, lct said:

I have no experience with SL cameras but i did not notice this issue on my M cameras so far. The snap below shows rather well what my 35/2 asph v1 can do at f/2 on the M240.

https://photos.smugmug.com/Diverse/n-QFBj4/Leica-M240-Summicron-352-asph-v1/i-MhpMcQQ/0/4ef9ff93/X4/M2401779_sips-X4.jpg

Here's a test showing midframe vs center on the ASPH: https://jacktaka.com/leica-35mm-f2:

Although the Summicron is razor-sharp in the center, it degrades significantly in the edges and even mid-frame. This is disappointing as the mid-frame is where your subject is placed when using the rule of thirds. At f/2, these subjects will appear somewhat unsharp.

[lct]

I have never seen a 35/2 lens as sharp at the center as at edges or corners so far, especially @ f/2. I have no experience with 35mm apo lenses though, perhaps they can do that, i have no idea. What is sure is my Summicron asph v1 is the sharper lens there compared to my v4 copies. It has less character though and i prefer the gentler rendition of v4 on portraits but this is another story.

[mediumformula]

 

M11M with German v4 (1990) at close focus (.70 meter).  JPEG from Fotos with minor adjustments for exposure and shadows.  I probably shot this at f4.

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[mediumformula]

JPEG from Fotos.  Slight boost in shadow detaiil.  Probably shot around f8 or 11.  M11M with German v4 (1990)

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[Greenhilltony]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:28 AM, lct said:

I must have done tests like this in the past. I'll try to retrieve them but all in all my asph v1 is sharper at f/2 than both my German and Canadian v4. It has also less focus shift, curiously enough.

Aspherical element is able to reduce focus shift, theoretically, since focus shift is a form of the spherical aberration. Though lenses with aspherical glasses does not essentially guarantee the absence of focus shift.

[Erato]

Sharpness is a Bourgeois Concept - Henri Cartier-Bresson

Would Earnest Hemingway have been a better writer if had used the latest MacBook Pro rather than a battered old Corona typewriter? Would Einstein have produced a better theory of relativity if he had been using the latest super-computer? Would Cartier-Bresson have made even more iconic images if he had been able to use pretty much any of the crop of current digital cameras armed with the latest super-sharp lenses? Quoted from -- https://petercripps.photography/2021/05/18/sharpness-is-a-bourgeois-concept/

I wonder...

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11311 Summicron-M 35mm f/2, V4., M10-P

 

11311 Summicron-M 35mm f/2, V4., M10 Monochrom

Edited August 1, 2023 by Erato
reference source added

[lct]

5 hours ago, Greenhilltony said:

Aspherical element is able to reduce focus shift, theoretically, since focus shift is a form of the spherical aberration. Though lenses with aspherical glasses does not essentially guarantee the absence of focus shift.

What i find curious is complains about focus shift aiming at the 35/2 asph v1, given that mine has none, but not the 35/2 v4 although it is obvious, if not huge, on both my German and Canadian v4 copies.

[mediumformula]

M11M with German 6-Bit coded KOB.  Probably around f5.6.

 

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[Erato]

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11311 Summicron-M 35mm f/2 Wide Open, V4., M10-P

[lct]

German 35/2 v4 @ f/2 on M11 (FF & crop). Just a snap to show the moderate acutance of the "KOB" at full aperture and its typical bokeh. For more acutance and smoother or more gaussian bokeh there, better choose a Summicron 35/2 asph v1 (no experience with v2).

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[mediumformula]

1990 German 35mm Summicron v4, 6-bit coded with B&W UV filter.  M11M, f8, 125 ISO, 1/1250 handheld. 

Compass Plant

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[costa43]

For me there is a significant difference when I zone focus on a film camera as opposed to digital. On digital I use a stop less on the scale vs my aperture. Film is a fair bit more forgiving.

[costa43]

7 hours ago, costa43 said:

For me there is a significant difference when I zone focus on a film camera as opposed to digital. On digital I use a stop less on the scale vs my aperture. Film is a fair bit more forgiving.

Apologies, I had two pages open and posted this in the wrong one.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M