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Is the king of bokeh lens also a sharp lens?


wolan

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In my decades use of this lens (which for me not more KOB than much many other lenses that I use), yes.

Sharpness notion has subjective and complex depending on people, for me nothing to do with out of plane of focus rendering (if that's what we are referring to).

The 35 Summilux pre-asph is as sharp (enough) and as KOB (same optical cell with f/1.4 overdrive/flare/glow/etc.) at same apertures.

KOB is overrated, anyway, but had push the price up many folds...

 

It's just a good lens among others with flaws as others 😇.

I'm lucky to own/use the Summicron 35mm in versions I, II, IV and asph.

As usual each must be learned to know how they differ.

 

Long life span from 1979 to 1996 is something not so usual, as Leitz/Leica "replaced" it with "better lens" 1 asph. element.

 

😏Now I use more and more relaxed lens like Summarit-M 2.5/35mm

 

 

Edited by a.noctilux
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Agreed with a.noctilux's comment on the "sharp enough", and pgk's comment as well.
FMHO, the upside of V4 is color rendering, and it's relatively compact while comparing with modern lenses.
And the downside is that you'd need to be very skillful in handling accurate focus/exposure against different apertures, and the return would be stunning.
In the meanwhile, the bokeh is dramatic against the different apertures. I'd say if you like color photography(analog/digital wise), it won't let you down.
For instance, I'd like to share an example for further reference.

ƒ/4.8  35.0 mm 1/30  800, M10-P

 

Edited by Erato
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Mike Johnston (The Online Photographer) coined the phrase "the King of Bokeh over 20 years ago - despite the fact that he never shot the lens wide open. He regrets it now. See his present-day opinion...

Quote

Years ago, rather unfortunately in some ways, I named the 35mm Summicron-M v.4 as the "King of Bokeh" (bokeh—or boke or boke-aji—meaning out-of-focus [o-o-f] blur). The epithet has taken on a life of its own since then...especially when that lens is for sale somewhere. Erwin rightly scolds me for this (indirectly) in Leica Chronicle.

I was missing part of the story at the time (1997). You see I never shot the lens wide open and very seldomly as little as one stop down. It does have wonderfully coherent blur—from ƒ/5.6 and moderate distances. That brilliant but flawed lens doesn't look its best (in any respect) wide open, or close up. (Lots of falloff, too, which I kind of liked.)

 

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2 hours ago, Erato said:

Agreed with a.noctilux's comment on the "sharp enough", and pgk's comment as well.
FMHO, the upside of V4 is color rendering, and it's relatively compact while comparing with modern lenses.
And the downside is that you'd need to be very skillful in handling accurate focus/exposure against different apertures, and the return would be stunning.
In the meanwhile, the bokeh is dramatic against the different apertures. I'd say if you like color photography(analog/digital wise), it won't let you down.
For instance, I'd like to share an example for further reference.

ƒ/4.8  35.0 mm 1/30  800, M10-P

Silver lens on black camera looks amazing! 👍

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46 minutes ago, evikne said:

Silver lens on black camera looks amazing! 👍

Haha, I like the M-System abilities and the build quality of the chrome version.
It's 35 Cron V1 in the sample picture., both lenses have their pro and cons. I'm learning these lenses day by day and found some suitable scenarios to use them.

Maybe someday, I'll figure out the best ways to use them in the future. 
And I like them both at the moment.

Edited by Erato
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22 minutes ago, lct said:

Depends on what you mean by stopped down. At f/8 i can hardly see significant differences between the 35/2 v4 and modern lenses like 35/1.4 FLE and 35/2 asph v1. 

I've noticed than some Mandler designed lenses have a very small amount of residual spherical aberration even stopped down. I notice it most of the 75/1.4 and if stopped down images are compared to the 75/s they appear to have a subtle smoothness across micro-detail edges whilst the 75/2 shows similar detail in a more precise and accurately defined way. I would say that this is also the case with the 35/2 v.4 relative to later aspheric designs. In highly detailed images printed large this can actually produce a very pleasant effect but it seems dependant on subject and lighting so isn't always particularly pronounced. In many cases such prints may well be almost indistinguishable. The v.4 is a very nice lens although personally I am happier with my aspheric pre-FLE Summilux.

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Contrast and a bit of sharpness - particularly at the edges - are the major differences between the v4 and modern lenses.  I've really gotten to like the micro contrast from the 35mm fle and cron.   That said for portraits the v4 has something special - softness is kind to facial imperfections and the transition from foreground to background is nice.  Final note - the v4 is double coated.  For film I like the 35mm lux pre apsh for b&w and the v4 for color.  

 

 

 

 

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I recently acquired a nice v4 Summicron. I haven’t seriously tested it, but it is wicked sharp wide open. I have a v2, and the v4 is sharper. Damn close to my v1 ASPH. I agree that my pre-FLE Summilux ASPH is a better all rounder.

my v4 is a Canadian lens, and the build quality is a little disappointing. If you’re not careful, it is too easy to unscrew the optical unit from the focusing mount, especially when mounting/dismounting the lens.

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26 minutes ago, Steven said:

This is why I wanted to get a Steel rim for my pre asph solution. But that's a pricey aesthetics caprice. 

I probably have a different reason than everyone else, but as you may have heard before, I like lenses with big front elements, and the silver framing makes the Summicron's front element look bigger.

Edited by evikne
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vor 20 Stunden schrieb pgk:

Its a good lens but if absolute 'sharpness' (as stetted its a subjective term) is your goal then its not up to the latest aspheric element lenses.

I beg to differ. I own both the Summicron 35 asph and the KOB 35 v IV (mine is made in Germany), and stopped down (which is what the OP had asked) both are indistinguishable. My copy of the Summicron 35 v IV is extremely sharp stopped down, and in terms of sharpness is amongst the sharpest of the many Leica lenses I own and use. At full aperture, however, the Summicron 35 asph is definitely the better lens. Still, for some reason I find myself using the 35 v IV much more often than the Summicron 35 asph. 

Andy

Edited by wizard
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12 hours ago, wolan said:

Ironically, in the dedicated flickr group https://www.flickr.com/groups/summicron35preasph/pool there are not many pictures with bokeh....

Thank you for your replies.

On this page there are many examples of the 35mm Summicron IV's rendering, many of them wide open:

https://www.photoblog.com/realmoments/category/35-cron-iv/

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13 minutes ago, wizard said:

I own both the Summicron 35 asph and the KOB 35 v IV and stopped down both are indistinguishable.

Well I've owned most 35/2 Summicrons and now have Summiluxes; pre-aspheric and pre-FLE aspheric. The 35/2 v.IV was a nice lens but I didn't find it as good as the pre-FLE aspheric Summilux which I prefer to the latest aspheric Summicron. I had the latest aspheric Summicron and found it rather 'unexceptional' myself (they are still very good Leica lenses) which might explain your comments. Looking at the MTF data from the v.IV and aspheric Summicron, whilst not the same they are not vastly dissimilar. IMO both are bettered by the aspheric Summilux stopped down, as is the pre-aspheric Summilux too. [Caveat, individual lenses do of course vary marginally!]. And perhaps I should also add again that all are excellent lenses.

Edited by pgk
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51 minutes ago, pgk said:

Well I've owned most 35/2 Summicrons and now have Summiluxes; pre-aspheric and pre-FLE aspheric. The 35/2 v.IV was a nice lens but I didn't find it as good as the pre-FLE aspheric Summilux which I prefer to the latest aspheric Summicron. I had the latest aspheric Summicron and found it rather 'unexceptional' myself (they are still very good Leica lenses) which might explain your comments. Looking at the MTF data from the v.IV and aspheric Summicron, whilst not the same they are not vastly dissimilar. IMO both are bettered by the aspheric Summilux stopped down, as is the pre-aspheric Summilux too. [Caveat, individual lenses do of course vary marginally!]. And perhaps I should also add again that all are excellent lenses.

I've been looking for a place to see a lot of samples of the pre aspheric summilux. Any one knows anything ? 

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