Would Leica ever make a Panoramic 35mm Film Camera?

[adan]

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3 hours ago, Ouroboros said:

You'd have made a better job of that with a wide format camera

Not really. It was a casual "co-workers snapshot." 

There is no camera that would ever have made it "better."

[Graham (G4FUJ)]

15 hours ago, Charles Morgan said:

Were it not for the failure of my main flat roof I might have bought a 617 by now, but at some later date. 

Sorry to read about your roof Charles.

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[Charles Morgan]

7 minutes ago, Graham (G4FUJ) said:

Sorry to read about your roof Charles.

Nothing greatly to worry about but the cost of re-doing it exactly equals the cost of a Fuji 617. Probably in the scheme of things a better, if annonying, use of the money!

 

[a.noctilux]

Fuji 617 tempted me years ago, but when I went to buy one, second hand I realized that the system wasn't for me.

I admired some Fuji 617 pictures, here somes of "gcap" Fuji G617 are wonder

in the thread we can see some alternative systems to do pano images.

[plasticman]

15 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

I admired some Fuji 617 pictures, here somes of "gcap" Fuji G617 are wonder

in the thread we can see some alternative systems to do pano images.

That thread - the pictures: 99% of them are the same-same-same. And I really think I would fall into the same visual clichés if I had a panoramic camera in my hands.

I like to fantasize that I would at least elevate my unimaginative vision to have some of the cinematic beauty of a Wes Anderson frame, but in reality I'd just have roll after roll of the same endless dreary landscapes (sometimes with a person in the center) - just like everyone else.

Is it my own sour grapes talking? I really can't tell. I guess I should get my hands on some sort of pano-camera and try it...

[a.noctilux]

As usual, you are absolutely right/spot on Plasticman 😉.

You should ...

 

Pictures are pictures, that's all

nothing more if one doesn't see more...than that.

 

...

one that "moves me" this seascape

and this timeless 6x13 glass plate with the person in the middle.

I admit that this one is beautifully boring, yes !

[wattsy]

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Like others, I also bought an Xpan-II and 45mm when it was current and, if I'm honest, I didn't really know what to do with it. I used to mostly take photographs in the portrait orientation in those days and the panoramic format of the Xpan seemed totally beyond me. I was also a bit underwhelmed by the 45mm lens and couldn't see what all the fuss was about (it was possible that I had a duff copy). I remember comparing some transparencies taken using the 45mm lens in panoramic format and also some taken around the same time with my Leica M and 24mm Elmarit. Even through a 4x loupe, I could see that the 24mm photos had far more detail. That fact, combined with the added hassle of scanning the wider format led to me selling the Xpan. All that said, I know that many people love these cameras. A professional photographer friend of mine (who at the time was a committed Canon digital system user) took an Xpan and 45mm as his only camera on a hiking tour in Nepal and was delighted with the photographs he took. He raved about the camera for years.

Edited January 22, 2021 by wattsy

[Cayenne]

On 1/21/2021 at 8:26 AM, Tom R said:

Seems to me that the likelihood of such a thing is pretty low: The "film" market is, arguably, a niche. The demand for panoramic cameras is likely a smaller niche (given the ease of creating panoramic images in Post Processing). Finally, the rangefinder market is likely a niche--especially given the plethora of more economical alternatives. The product of these gives me a pretty narrow slice across the spectrum of <you pick the category here>. 

But, I'm not a marketing person by any stretch ... just thinking of the question in the abstract.

Well, they're easy to take, if everyone and everything in the scene is standing still while you take multiple images.

But it's kinda hard to set up and use a ND filter on a panoramic landscape where you're trying to smooth water unless you can do it in one shutter click...or a busy street shot with lots of people moving around, etc.

I dunno...I really think something like a new Xpan type 35mm pano native camera would sell nicely.

Heck, I'd like to buy a digital pano type camera with a new sensor that was physically wider than current ones....squeeze the same megapixels in, but just shape it in more of a pano aspect ratio.

 

OH well, I guess when I win the powerball or megamillions, I"ll invest my own money into them....

It's fun to dream.

cayenne

[Ouroboros]

On 1/22/2021 at 3:10 PM, Cayenne said:

 

I dunno...I really think something like a new Xpan type 35mm pano native camera would sell nicely.

Heck, I'd like to buy a digital pano type camera 

 

OH well, I guess when I win the powerball or megamillions, I"ll invest my own money into them....

 

Seitz Roundshot made a digital 'panoramic' 6x17  over a decade ago, I saw one once and it was a huge beast.  So was the cost.  The only person I know of who used one was David Osborn.

[giannis]

Too much hassle for Leica. The main problem would be lenses. Leica doesn't have any experience in medium format (or larger) lenses to cover a true panoramic format, neither I'm guessing any designs ready for production. It would necessitate a brand new lens lineup, at considerable prime premium over M lenses (easily 5k+ per lens). In the current market, I doubt they'd ever recoup the costs of developing the lenses alone, if they sell just a couple dozen per year.

Honestly if someone where to make a panoramic camera, it would be Fuji. They have a huge experience in panoramic cameras (Xpan, 617) as well as medium and large format lenses. Also experience building many different camera form factors in medium format. They pretty much built anything under the sun: 6x7 rangefinders, 6x9 rangefinders both fixed lens and interchangeable, 645 rangefinders and AF rangefinders,  6x8 SLRs, bellows cameras, not to mention their panoramic models like the 617 or Xpan (TX). Will they do it? I believe not but I'd like to be pleasantly surprised.

For now the easiest route to panoramic seems to be a medium format camera (preferably 6x7 or larger), with an adapter for 35mm film. This is trivial to do with no modifications and $5 in plastic 3D printed parts, if you don't mind unloading the roll in the changing bag once it's finished. Alternatively, a panoramic back. It's a shame that those cost as much as the camera itself due to rarity, but even the exorbitant $300, say for a bronica panoramic back, seems like a steal next to XPan prices.

And another route seems to be simple, 3D-printed or CNC'd medium format bodies with large format lenses. A light-tight black box with a transport mechanism and a helicoid, you mount a ubiquitous 90mm super angulon, and you're good to go for 6x12. The main complications in a body is the focusing mechanism and shutter. With a shoe mounted external RF (can be had for $30), and the shutter in the lens, those are solved. 

Edited January 25, 2021 by giannis

[willeica]

At the LSI Conference in Wetzlar last week Bill Rosauer (derleicaman) and I organised an expert group, including Jim Lager, to go into the Leica Archive to examine records of the early work of Oskar Barnack. We looked at boxes of his early negatives and prints and among them we found this panoramic aerial image from c 1918/19. It is perfectly exposed, but I have had to bump up the exposure to reveal the writing on the cardboard frame. A quick translation of this was that it was something like 'a panoramic image taken from a Zeppelin around 1918 with a special camera which was kept hidden from the Allies'. 

 

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It is about 3 x 35mm frames wide. This seems to date the origins of Barnack's panoramic camera to an earlier date than had been previously thought. Attempts to accurately translate the text on the frame are welcomed. It would be good to find the actual camera which took this image. It may well be the camera already shown above. The later dates attributed to the camera may possibly result from the 'hiding' of the camera for a period. 

As to whether Leica would make a modern panoramic film camera, this is highly unlikely. The company has had to up-skill and re-skill to stay in the 35mm film camera game. This would require a lot more.

William 

 

[250swb]

If you search them out there are makers of niche cameras like panoramic 35mm, here is a 3D printed one from Chroma Cameras

https://chroma.camera/products/cubepan-standard-135-format-panoramic-system

I have one of their 6x12 cameras, and with some user additions (like a lens and viewfinder) it works very well.

[Fotoklaus]

Let's face it: The only reaseon that Leica could still sell a 35mm Camera is the fact, that it is basically the same camera since 2003, if not since 1984.

A complete new designed camera and lenses would not be a rewarding business.

[FrozenInTime]

The Widelux resurrection projects seems to be progressing towards market:  https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2023/07/the-widelux-revival-project/

Leica could with a little mechanical effort follow the Seitz Roundshot design and make a rotating slot shutter camera that used M lenses.

The Roundshot 28/220 used Nikon F or Contax SLR 28mm lenses ( I once owned one of these ).

The was also a stereo 35mm camera that utilised two 21mm Elmarit-M lenses.

https://www.roundshot.com/en/home/company/our-history.html/104

 However, these concepts are more easily that ever with reach of today's hobby shop electronics with 3D or CNC CAD-CAM technology, so such a project would best be handled outside Leica.

[willeica]

4 hours ago, FrozenInTime said:

The Widelux resurrection projects seems to be progressing towards market:  https://silvergrainclassics.com/en/2023/07/the-widelux-revival-project/

Leica could with a little mechanical effort follow the Seitz Roundshot design and make a rotating slot shutter camera that used M lenses.

The Roundshot 28/220 used Nikon F or Contax SLR 28mm lenses ( I once owned one of these ).

The was also a stereo 35mm camera that utilised two 21mm Elmarit-M lenses.

https://www.roundshot.com/en/home/company/our-history.html/104

 However, these concepts are more easily that ever with reach of today's hobby shop electronics with 3D or CNC CAD-CAM technology, so such a project would best be handled outside Leica.

A rebadging is possible, but I cannot see Leica making a panoramic camera from the ground up.

William 

[Anbaric]

I think we can safely say that (apart from any rebadge jobs like the Sofort) Leica are unlikely to produce another film camera that isn't basically some variant of the M6, whatever they call it, and while there might be refinements, there won't be any substantial innovations, which mostly aren't what their traditionally-minded customers want. I doubt there'll even be anything as 'advanced' as the M7 again.

[adan]

The Hasselblad XPan (and its lenses) were a rebadged version of Fujifilm products - sold as Fujifilm TX-1 in Japan and "Hasselblad" in the rest of the world. A marriage arranged by Hasslblad's Asian distributors - Shriro Group (Hong Kong)

https://jonasraskphotography.com/2019/06/17/fujifilm-tx-1-the-original-xpan/

Key point about the XPan/TX-1: they used a motor to advance the panoramic film frames, 65mm at a time.

I think that goes far, far beyond any design or manufacturing investment Leica wants to make in an all-new film camera. Let alone anyone else.

Except Lomo (who know how their bread is buttered - by the cheap and "fun" end of the film market, including selling film to their own camera customers, or vice-versa).

[Fotoklaus]

Back in the day, when Film was on it's Peak, those kind of cameras have been sold in small numbers. Who would buy them now? 

[250swb]

16 minutes ago, Fotoklaus said:

Back in the day, when Film was on it's Peak, those kind of cameras have been sold in small numbers. Who would buy them now? 

I genuinely think photographers are more inspired and experimental today than they ever were. The rapid decline in film among 'serious photographers' caused a fundamental reset such that when it was revived by the youthful Lomography movement many of the old rules about equipment went out the window. That gung-ho spirit has remained integrated in films revival. I am very happy to carry a Holga along with my 'serious' Leica or MF gear, but then I was doing that anyway long before the digital camera arrived on the scene.

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Hallo,

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[Fotoklaus]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb 250swb:

I genuinely think photographers are more inspired and experimental today than they ever were. The rapid decline in film among 'serious photographers' caused a fundamental reset such that when it was revived by the youthful Lomography movement many of the old rules about equipment went out the window. That gung-ho spirit has remained integrated in films revival. I am very happy to carry a Holga along with my 'serious' Leica or MF gear, but then I was doing that anyway long before the digital camera arrived on the scene.

Maybe, but we are talking about a complete new design for a 35mm Panoramic Camera. That would take Millions in double digits to develop. All this LOMO/Holga, and let´s face it, Leica stuff, is old wine in new bottles.