Using Leica APO-Summicron-M 35mm on Film cameras

[dsetiono01]

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Some quick updates on this topic. At first I was going to send it directly to the service center (which is just a forwarding agent to Wetzlar), but I made another stop at the Leica gallery where I bought it from, and to my shock, when I tried it on their display Film Bodies, they all work! I tried it on their M6 Reissue, a brand new MP Silver, and very shocking to see the rangefinder mechanism work perfectly on their Film bodies.

I guess my Black Paint mp is busted...But its been working fine and RF alignment was perfect with all other lenses, just that it doesnt play nicely with the 35 APO. This makes the real cause of the issue really difficult to pin down.....not sure how many different permutations/ tests/ body-lens combination they need to check to nail down the root cause.

[wizard]

vor 13 Stunden schrieb dsetiono01:

not sure how many different permutations/ tests/ body-lens combination they need to check to nail down the root cause.

To the best of my knowledge, this is a known problem. It has to do with the position of the cam roller at the camera relative to the lens. Sometimes the cam roller sits just a little too high and thus does not come into contact with the lens' rangefinder cam. It is an easy fix, really, and only requires a slight height repositioning of the cam roller.

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[dsetiono01]

1 hour ago, wizard said:

To the best of my knowledge, this is a known problem. It has to do with the position of the cam roller at the camera relative to the lens. Sometimes the cam roller sits just a little too high and thus does not come into contact with the lens' rangefinder cam. It is an easy fix, really, and only requires a slight height repositioning of the cam roller.

That makes  sense. I kind of suspected its something to do with the roller position & shouldn't need a lot of time to fix. I'm just glad the lens was not the issue.

In the mean time, on a slightly happy note, I was able to secure myself (surprisingly!) a Re-issued M6 today and fortunately the set plays nicely with the lens!

[MarkTodd]

On 12/19/2022 at 7:33 AM, wizard said:

To the best of my knowledge, this is a known problem. It has to do with the position of the cam roller at the camera relative to the lens. Sometimes the cam roller sits just a little too high and thus does not come into contact with the lens' rangefinder cam. It is an easy fix, really, and only requires a slight height repositioning of the cam roller.

I just sent my M6 Reissue to Leica service to have the roller cam adjusted after spending time at my Leica dealer testing my APO 35mm on their M6 were it worked perfectly.  Hopefully it's a simple fix.

[MarkTodd]

It turned out the fix was not the roller cam on my new M6, but on my new APO 35mm.  Leica had both my M6 and APO 35mm for over two month and I finally received them back this week.  The repair ended up being the replacement of the Focusing Mount on the APO 35mm.  Happy to report the focusing now works perfectly.

[darlesch]

Sadly, I have the same problem from an Aug 2022 manufactured MP. Like everyone else the rangefinder fails to couple closer than distances of 1.5 - 2 metres. Infinity to this point works fine. The lens curiously works perfectly with my M-A and M2 (and my digital body). Leica told me a 12 week turnaround time to inspect the body (they didn't ask me to send in the lens, I got a technician to confirm this). Of course, 12 weeks could turn into 6 months. I elected not to send the body in because it works perfectly fine otherwise. I have my other bodies to use with the 35 APO.

On 12/19/2022 at 11:43 AM, dsetiono01 said:

That makes  sense. I kind of suspected its something to do with the roller position & shouldn't need a lot of time to fix. I'm just glad the lens was not the issue.

In the mean time, on a slightly happy note, I was able to secure myself (surprisingly!) a Re-issued M6 today and fortunately the set plays nicely with the lens!

Just wondering if you got your issue resolved? Did you end up sending in your MP with or without lens?

[dsetiono01]

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10 hours ago, darlesch said:

Sadly, I have the same problem from an Aug 2022 manufactured MP. Like everyone else the rangefinder fails to couple closer than distances of 1.5 - 2 metres. Infinity to this point works fine. The lens curiously works perfectly with my M-A and M2 (and my digital body). Leica told me a 12 week turnaround time to inspect the body (they didn't ask me to send in the lens, I got a technician to confirm this). Of course, 12 weeks could turn into 6 months. I elected not to send the body in because it works perfectly fine otherwise. I have my other bodies to use with the 35 APO.

Just wondering if you got your issue resolved? Did you end up sending in your MP with or without lens?

So actually didn't send it in because it works perfectly with all other lenses except the apo 35, so while its still "fresh", I traded it in...for the 2022 M6 which doesn't have the issue !

[scott kirkpatrick]

I just tried my 35 APO on my M10D.  It gave me sharp pictures at f/2.0 from 1.5 m to 0.3 m, using the rangefinder when I could and a ruler for scale focusing when I was in the closer range.  (I measured the distance to the back of the camera, roughly the film plane.)

[darlesch]

Hi everyone,

I sent my own MP body in and committed to fixing it. My concern was whether the body needs to be fixed or rather the lens needs to, as someone else found out with his combination. 

Leica NJ stated my body is in repair queue and this was the list of items to be done:
-adjust range finder
-clean viewfinder optic as far as possible
-check, adjust, clean

So far my lens has not been requested. Now will wait for 12 weeks (as quoted). 

Edited May 25, 2023 by darlesch

[darlesch]

I wanted to provide an update for the future if anyone else runs into this problem with their precious new MP or M6 2022 and their 35 APO lens. 

You don't have to send in your body or lens to Leica for repair. There's a simple fix and I stumbled upon it by accident.

I mentioned in May I sent in my MP for repair to make it work with the 35 APO. Only the body was sent. The MP came back in under four weeks from NJ (thank you Leica NJ). The problem was fixed. My 35 APO coupled properly at all distances. I acquired another new MP (don't ask me why). This new MP (2023 mfr) had the exact same issues with RF coupling at distances closer than 1.5 m with only the 35 APO. 

The fix: Normally, mounting a Leica lens involves rotating clockwise until a click is heard. Pretty straightforward. Not with the 35 APO. For those with affected M6/MP's like myself, I discovered that you need to turn 35 APO lens clockwise even further with minimal force (no need to press and hold the lens release button). The 35 APO actually rotates clockwise further into place, you hear ANOTHER light click, and this additional force makes the RF couple properly with the 35 APO at all distances (i.e. 0.7 m to infinity compared to 1.5 meters to infinity). And that is how I fixed the problem on the 2nd MP body without sending it to NJ.

Want to reproduce the problem? Rotate counter clockwise as if dismounting (without pressing lens release button) and the RF coupling issues return. Turning it clockwise again without pressing the lens release button, once again you hear a light click, fixes the problem right away. 

Bottomline: Is it the lens or is it the body? Who knows, maybe someone with technical knowledge can figure it out, but I'm glad I don't have to send anything in for repair anymore. In my case, as you noticed, I have two MPs. The first one was sent for repair, and second one I was able to discover the DIY fix at home. 

If I attempt the DIY fix above with the MP that was repaired by NJ, i.e. rotating counter clockwise to try and reproduce the coupling issues, I'm unable to. The RF couples at all distances no matter if I wiggle the lens or not.

If I attempt the DIY fix above with the 2nd MP that I did not send in to NJ, I'm able to reproduce and fix the coupling issues by the simple turn of the lens counter-clockwise and clockwise respectively. 

Why all this trouble? Why do I care? IMHO, the 35 APO coupled with a film body is worth it, even on film. I'm not here to review a lens or show you my negatives to convince you, but I'm elated that this lens now works on all my film bodies. Now nobody else has to risk waiting months for repair. Please enjoy. 

[IkarusJohn]

Just tried my 35 APO Summicron on my M-A, and it focuses with no issues.  I’ve used it on my M10-D and Monochrom, also with no issues.

For the record, the lens will focus down to its minimum close focusing distance; it’s just the rangefinder mechanism stops working at 700mm.  So, if you use a tripod and a ruler and focus bracket, you can get close-up images without live view or an EVF.

Pedantry, I know.

[AZPenviceroy]

Thanks for that info! I tried what you suggested with M7 and still no joy. It focuses until you get close up and no luck. Anyone else try this with an M7?

[Huss]

8 minutes ago, AZPenviceroy said:

Thanks for that info! I tried what you suggested with M7 and still no joy. It focuses until you get close up and no luck. Anyone else try this with an M7?

I’m in the Los Angeles area.  I have two M7s we could try it on if you are local.

[IkarusJohn]

4 hours ago, AZPenviceroy said:

Thanks for that info! I tried what you suggested with M7 and still no joy. It focuses until you get close up and no luck. Anyone else try this with an M7?

What exactly do you mean that it doesn’t focus?  The camera won’t focus below 700mm as the rangefinder mechanism doesn’t go any further, but the lens should still focus (ie, the patch in the viewfinder won’t move, but the lens should keep focusing.  If the lens focuses down to 300mm on a digital M (using live view or an EVF), then a film M should make no difference - the lens will still focus, but you won’t be able to see the focus through the viewfinder below 700mm.

Let me put this another way - if you have a digital M, put the lens on your film M and then your digital M - looking through the viewfinder, both cameras should behave the same, looking through the viewfinder, not live view or EVF with the digital M.  In both cases, the lens does continue to focus closer than the 700mm limit on the rangefinder mechanism.  You just can’t see the change through the viewfinder.

[darlesch]

On 6/20/2023 at 8:01 PM, IkarusJohn said:

What exactly do you mean that it doesn’t focus?  The camera won’t focus below 700mm as the rangefinder mechanism doesn’t go any further, but the lens should still focus (ie, the patch in the viewfinder won’t move, but the lens should keep focusing.  If the lens focuses down to 300mm on a digital M (using live view or an EVF), then a film M should make no difference - the lens will still focus, but you won’t be able to see the focus through the viewfinder below 700mm.

Let me put this another way - if you have a digital M, put the lens on your film M and then your digital M - looking through the viewfinder, both cameras should behave the same, looking through the viewfinder, not live view or EVF with the digital M.  In both cases, the lens does continue to focus closer than the 700mm limit on the rangefinder mechanism.  You just can’t see the change through the viewfinder.

Hey IkarusJohn. We’re all in agreement that no film body has a rangefinder that couples below 0.7 metres.

The issue at hand, although perhaps not elicited clearly in the beginning of the thread, is that the 35 APO doesn’t couple properly from 0.7 meters to 1.5 meters for select film bodies (MP/M6), mine included, or well it didn't before I found a fix.

On 6/20/2023 at 3:53 PM, AZPenviceroy said:

Thanks for that info! I tried what you suggested with M7 and still no joy. It focuses until you get close up and no luck. Anyone else try this with an M7?

Thanks for trying. I’m really sorry it didn’t work for you. I’m really puzzled then as to which is the problem then.

 

[IkarusJohn]

9 minutes ago, darlesch said:

Hey IkarusJohn. We’re all in agreement that no film body has a rangefinder that couples below 0.7 metres.

The issue at hand, although perhaps not elicited clearly in the beginning of the thread, is that the 35 APO doesn’t couple properly from 0.7 meters to 1.5 meters for select film bodies (MP/M6), mine included, or well it didn't before I found a fix.

 

Yes, I understand that.  However, some of the contributions to the discussion, read out of context, would create a misapprehension that the issue was wider than you suggest.  Just looking for clarity which extends beyond your particular issue, and avoiding yet another lengthy discussion based on a misunderstanding.

Cheers
John

[GeorgeRz450e]

On 7/7/2022 at 3:30 PM, luigi bertolotti said:

Any longtime Leica user does know well that with rangefinder you can get focus (with standard rangefinder coupled lenses) to :

- 1 meter (Leica screw mount - Leica M3 (*) )

- 0,7 m (Leica M2 and later models - film and digital)

And the Leica brochure of the Apo Summicron 35 states clearly :

Focus range  : 0.3 m to infinity (LiveView), 0.7 m to infinity (Rangefinder)

To say that it "doesn't work on film cameras"  is not correct.

 

(*) to be precise. for M3 Leitz specifically made the so called "goggled lenses" (btw, a Summicron 35 between them) with rangefinder coupled focus to 0,65 - 0,7 meters.

Thanks for this, I was struggling with my 35mm apo n m10r on this 0.3m close range shooting just two days ago. Thought it was firmware, capability issues... now you've solved my puzzle.

Yes, tested on LF, all good.

Will test on EVF as well

[algrove]

On 4/13/2022 at 12:22 AM, AZPenviceroy said:

Thanks for your answer, so I just got word from someone who has one and he says it works all the way through the full focus even the close up. So I guess my lens is bad and Ill have to send it in. Thanks!

Are you sure this "person" is using the APO 35 CF lens in the same setup as you?