SL2-S

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Because it will have an L mount?

I suppose they might have called it a SL2-M. But some people are very sensitive.....

[panoreserve]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb jaapv:

Well, in fact it does in this case, because both the EVF technology and electronic integration make the use of zoom lenses considerably more practical on a mirrorless camera. Camera technology does matter - for instance the fully manual RF technology of a rangefinder will certainly impact your lens choice. Try mounting an 80-200 on the M9.

Agreed! - But, as for me, camera technology never had an impact on my lens choice. Regardless of Leica R/M/CanNikon (D)SLR/and, since 2016, LeicaSL... I always had/have exclusively used - primes🙂. (And the SL- primes are the very best.)

[AZN]

FWIW, Leica Rumours reports that a new camera will be announced 11th Nov 2020:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/11/09/new-leica-camera-to-be-announced-this-week.aspx/

Maybe the SL2S ?

[Tom1234]

3 minutes ago, Steven said:

Q2 Mono. We’ve already discussed this. 

I hope Leica SL5 (baby video camera).  

[Tom1234]

Just now, Steven said:

0 chance. 
also, I spoke with someone at Leica yesterday who confirmed to me (he seemed very confident and has never been wrong before) that the upcoming sl2s is a cheaper, 24mp SL2. It will be a great video camera and great still with an advantage in low light compared to the more expensive sl2. 

Dropping the pixel count gives what?  2 stops, 1.5 stop, 1 stop, 1/2 a stop of light advantage?

I am thinking the SL2 has stabilization for video?  If so what a great piece of kit!  I think the SL had no stabilization, correct me?  The stabilization is s game changer. 

[tom.w.bn]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Tom1234:

Dropping the pixel count gives what?  2 stops, 1.5 stop, 1 stop, 1/2 a stop of light advantage?

 

Where should that light advantage come from? S1R vs. S1 -> same sensor generation. The S1 has slightly more dynamic range while the S1R has slightly better high Iso results. 

[Tom1234]

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17 minutes ago, Steven said:

0 chance. 
also, I spoke with someone at Leica yesterday who confirmed to me (he seemed very confident and has never been wrong before) that the upcoming sl2s is a cheaper, 24mp SL2. It will be a great video camera and great still with an advantage in low light compared to the more expensive sl2. 

Your confidence against this is killing me and I bet your table top model does not like it either. 

[Jeff S]

30 minutes ago, Steven said:

0 chance. 
also, I spoke with someone at Leica yesterday who confirmed to me (he seemed very confident and has never been wrong before) that the upcoming sl2s is a cheaper, 24mp SL2. It will be a great video camera and great still with an advantage in low light compared to the more expensive sl2. 

And of course a wildly different aesthetic.  Not.  Can we put this topic to bed now?
 

Jeff

[BernardC]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I spoke with someone at Leica yesterday who confirmed to me (he seemed very confident and has never been wrong before) that the upcoming sl2s is a cheaper, 24mp SL2. It will be a great video camera and great still with an advantage in low light compared to the more expensive sl2. 

Insider information isn't always accurate. We know from the SL2 launch that insiders didn't know what would be announced, because Leica had worked on several different prototypes. They were also working on an SL2 with the M10R sensor.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the SL2-S: 40 MP, better low-light, better colour array (like the S3). They could even throw-in 8K UHD video (7860x4320), or over-sampled 6K. We know the 40MP sensor is great, they've already done most of the development work, so why not?

[Tom1234]

This all will create a totally confused used market at some point in a few years. 

[sillbeers15]

3 hours ago, BernardC said:

Insider information isn't always accurate. We know from the SL2 launch that insiders didn't know what would be announced, because Leica had worked on several different prototypes. They were also working on an SL2 with the M10R sensor.

I wouldn't be surprised if that's the SL2-S: 40 MP, better low-light, better colour array (like the S3). They could even throw-in 8K UHD video (7860x4320), or over-sampled 6K. We know the 40MP sensor is great, they've already done most of the development work, so why not?

I agree the M10R has a better sensor in DR especially in handling slight over exposure and less noisy than the SL2’s sensor since I own both. 
However it is unlikely for the M10R sensor to appear on the SL system unless both sensors are from the same design source. I say so as the SL system uses the Panasonic’s proprietary AF system adapting the sensor’s information. Both got to be compatible to function. 
Also on marketing the next SL with a 40M0Px over the current 47MPx isn’t going to fly with customers. It is different on creating a 24MPx version with better Low light capability and perhaps better AF since there can be faster AF calculation now that the same processor has less work to do on a lower pixel image process.

[AZN]

6 hours ago, Steven said:

Q2 Mono. We’ve already discussed this. 

Provision of an appropriate link would make the above statement sound a little less arrogant – yes?

[BernardC]

11 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

I agree the M10R has a better sensor in DR especially in handling slight over exposure and less noisy than the SL2’s sensor since I own both. 
However it is unlikely for the M10R sensor to appear on the SL system unless both sensors are from the same design source. I say so as the SL system uses the Panasonic’s proprietary AF system adapting the sensor’s information. Both got to be compatible to function. 
Also on marketing the next SL with a 40M0Px over the current 47MPx isn’t going to fly with customers. It is different on creating a 24MPx version with better Low light capability and perhaps better AF since there can be faster AF calculation now that the same processor has less work to do on a lower pixel image process.

I guess there are two unanswered questions here:

1. Is the 40 MP sensor enough of an improvement over the 47MP sensor to justify putting it in the SL2?
2. Can Leica find a modern 24MP sensor that is compatible with M lenses?

We know from the S3 that the 40 MP sensor architecture is capable of producing high-quality video. We know from the M10R that it offers performance improvements over the 47 MP sensor. We know that it's a Leica-exclusive sensor, and that they would benefit from higher volumes.

The second question is also interesting. The Panasonic S5 and Sigma fp use BSI sensors, presumably from Sony Semi, and those don't work well with M lenses. That's not to say that this sensor can't be made to work, but modifications may be expensive. Would Leica make this investment for a low volume camera, when they already have an excellent 40 MP sensor? If they decide on 24 MP, would they choose the fp/S5 sensor, or would they look elsewhere? Can the original SL/M10 sensor be updated? Maybe the SL2-S won't be as M-friendly as the SL and SL2? What would be the selling point if they chose to go with the BSI sensor? Is it enough to be a bit cheaper/faster than the SL2?

 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, of course. I find it intriguing that the 40 MP sensor is almost exactly the right res for 8K UHD (with 80 spare pixels on either side), but that could be a coincidence.

[lx1713]

 

1 minute ago, BernardC said:

I guess there are two unanswered questions here:

1. Is the 40 MP sensor enough of an improvement over the 47MP sensor to justify putting it in the SL2?
2. Can Leica find a modern 24MP sensor that is compatible with M lenses?

We know from the S3 that the 40 MP sensor architecture is capable of producing high-quality video. We know from the M10R that it offers performance improvements over the 47 MP sensor. We know that it's a Leica-exclusive sensor, and that they would benefit from higher volumes.

The second question is also interesting. The Panasonic S5 and Sigma fp use BSI sensors, presumably from Sony Semi, and those don't work well with M lenses. That's not to say that this sensor can't be made to work, but modifications may be expensive. Would Leica make this investment for a low volume camera, when they already have an excellent 40 MP sensor? If they decide on 24 MP, would they choose the fp/S5 sensor, or would they look elsewhere? Can the original SL/M10 sensor be updated? Maybe the SL2-S won't be as M-friendly as the SL and SL2? What would be the selling point if they chose to go with the BSI sensor? Is it enough to be a bit cheaper/faster than the SL2?

 

I don't know the answers to any of these questions, of course. I find it intriguing that the 40 MP sensor is almost exactly the right res for 8K UHD (with 80 spare pixels on either side), but that could be a coincidence.

These are very good points.

[Tom1234]

3 hours ago, Steven said:

Is it tomorrow’s announcement that came early or are we still getting something else tomorrow?

In Horror movies there used to always be "the distant early warning" something that happens ahead of time to forshadow latter events. It is not necessary but some people like it dramatically.  Yet with mystery stories, you have to give up a little of the mystery as you go along or there is no story progress and the audience falls asleep.  The "distant early warning" is a way to about half way give away some information to the audience.  Leica Rumors is using this technique. 

And as you know, some people just have to tell the secret…. even corporate heads have fumbled and given it out.  A secret is a higher pressure than, ridding on a private plane for three hours that has no lavatory.  Finally you can not move out of the seat or you will pee your pants.  The CEO of Leica and VP of Leica marketing have no doubt felt this, and have some favorite person they tell the secret to before all others.  

Me, I can't afford the private plane so I have never pee'd my pants, never not once.  

And yes, I bet we get the same we heard before and then some more. 

[BernardC]

4 hours ago, Steven said:

Is it tomorrow’s announcement that came early or are we still getting something else tomorrow?

The rumour was that tomorrow's announcement would be for the Q2 Monochrom, so that's probably it. The SL2S is also rumoured, but without a specific date.

[Tom1234]

I was looking at the SL as a good used deal in an M mount mirrorless camera but then a rush of new cameras came out by Panasonic (S1, S5) and Nikon Z's with vastly increased usable ISO.  

I already have three ISO challenged M's - M8.2 (660 ISO) , M9(880 ISO), and M9M(1,200 ISO) but the CCD rendition makes up for it.  CMOS sensors giving flat duller file only have ISO (speed) to make up for it.  

Also, there is focusing:  My next M Mount camera will probably be decided by this product's varied body options:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/10/24/you-can-now-autofocus-leica-m-mount-lenses-on-nikon-z-mirrorless-cameras-with-the-new-techart-tzm-01-adapter.aspx/

I am astonished that Leica does not produce the same for its M series.  This shows the blindness or unwillingness to use the full technology but instead to play "product release games" that streach out to make the maximum number of new releases... finally users are forced to 3rd parties for satisfaction.  Hello Techart. So a third party has to get the ball rolling or no innovation?

 

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[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

I was looking at the SL as a good used deal in an M mount mirrorless camera but then a rush of new cameras came out by Panasonic (S1, S5) and Nikon Z's with vastly increased usable ISO.  

I already have three ISO challenged M's - M8.2 (660 ISO) , M9(880 ISO), and M9M(1,200 ISO) but the CCD rendition makes up for it.  CMOS sensors giving flat duller file only have ISO (speed) to make up for it.  

Also, there is focusing:  My next M Mount camera will probably be decided by this product's varied body options:

https://leicarumors.com/2020/10/24/you-can-now-autofocus-leica-m-mount-lenses-on-nikon-z-mirrorless-cameras-with-the-new-techart-tzm-01-adapter.aspx/

I am astonished that Leica does not produce the same for its M series.  This shows the blindness or unwillingness to use the full technology but instead to play "product release games" that streach out to make the maximum number of new releases... finally users are forced to 3rd parties for satisfaction.  Hello Techart. So a third party has to get the ball rolling or no innovation?

 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Yeah. If I were Leica, I would produce a range of AF M to L adapters for M lenses that have varied focusing travel. Plus a majority of M lenses have short focal length. Few fast M lenses (Noctilux) should really benefit for adapted use on SL & SL2. Selling each adapter for $3-5k is easy money for Leica as compared to the cost of each Noctilux is acceptable for most owners. Leica, think about it! It may even help to sell more Noctilux and SL2!

[Simone_DF]

@Tom1234 I have that same adapter for Sony. It works great for what it is, but it's far from perfect. Basically lenses have to be set to infinity, and focus is fast and good in the center area. Move to the mid zone of the frame and it starts to be wonky, but still usable. It is not usable on the outer edges of the frame, the focus hunts like crazy (in that case I just switch to manual focusing). Also image quality suffers a bit with lenses with floating elements. There is a very long thread on Fred Miranda's forum.

TLDR for about 300€ is fantastic, you can nail eye-af with a 1.4 lens no problem, but it has many quirks.

The main reason Leica is not producing one is because the Techart needs phase detect, and because quality won't be up to Leica standards.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Tom1234]

3 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

@Tom1234 I have that same adapter for Sony. It works great for what it is, but it's far from perfect. Basically lenses have to be set to infinity, and focus is fast and good in the center area. Move to the mid zone of the frame and it starts to be wonky, but still usable. It is not usable on the outer edges of the frame, the focus hunts like crazy (in that case I just switch to manual focusing). Also image quality suffers a bit with lenses with floating elements. There is a very long thread on Fred Miranda's forum.

TLDR for about 300€ is fantastic, you can nail eye-af with a 1.4 lens no problem, but it has many quirks.

The main reason Leica is not producing one is because the Techart needs phase detect, and because quality won't be up to Leica standards.

Thanks for the Heads UP on this adapter.  I really don't expect 3rd party product to be perfect but it could bring new life to old lenses.  The new lenses are so expensive as to be not considered.  

Leica should make something like this but I see as you mentioned it depends on the focus system used… possibly an attachment to the SL series?