"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[Chaemono]

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vor 10 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

There is a huge diff between those 2... but how often is that kind of correction needed??

Don, good question. As stated above, thighslapper uses Bracketing. Therefore, it’s not a issue for him. Depending on what you shoot, probably also rarely for you the way you pose the question. For me, this is important. After the M240 and with the introduction by Sony of a BSI sensor in the α7R II, FF users have been getting more and more spoiled with amazingly malleable files that approach MF performance of the X1D sensor (not quite for DR and color sensitivity, I know).

Heck, the CL is incredible in this respect. The first thing I check when I get a camera is its DR and the malleability of its files. See how the CL does in the first two shots here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-N7zNRh/

When I saw the low-light performance of the CL, I thought ‘amazing for an APS-C camera.’ No wonder Jaap bought it right away. The S1R, with regards to this, takes us back to the age of the M240, I’m afraid. We have been spoiled. There is no way that we will go back to the FF stone-age.

[ron777]

30 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Don, good question. As stated above, thighslapper uses Bracketing. Therefore, it’s not a issue for him. Depending on what you shoot, probably also rarely for you the way you pose the question. For me, this is important. After the M240 and with the introduction by Sony of a BSI sensor in the α7R II, FF users have been getting more and more spoiled with amazingly malleable files that approach MF performance of the X1D sensor (not quite for DR and color sensitivity, I know).

Heck, the CL is incredible in this respect. The first thing I check when I get a camera is its DR and the malleability of its files. See how the CL does in the first two shots here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-N7zNRh/

When I saw the low-light performance of the CL, I thought ‘amazing for an APS-C camera.’ No wonder Jaap bought it right away. The S1R, with regards to this, takes us back to the age of the M240, I’m afraid. We have been spoiled. There is no way that we will go back to the FF stone-age.

The message is clear, we are reaching the limits in terms of how many pixels can be shoved into a given sized sensor, to wit, the  new Sony A7RIV's noise issue.  So perhaps for those whose image acquisitions require extreme shadow recovery a less dense sensor would provide more pleasing results.  And for those of us who require greater resolution, a MF sensor might be a better choice, which was the motivating factor behind my pre-order of the elusive Fuji GFX100.  

BTW, I've noticed the love that is afforded the Hasselblad X1d/II.  I'd returned an X1D due to its pokey function, shutter lag and the absence of a live histogram.  The X1dII has benefited from a slight improvement in regards to those issues, but it still does not have a live histogram.  Fuji's GFX50s/R, with the same sensor, is considerably more capable, albeit, not as physically attractive or pleasing in hand.  Sorry for the off topic rant.

Edited September 15, 2019 by ron777

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[ron777]

10 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Granted your requirements require high MPx. There are the medium format cameras that are equipped with bigger footprint and MPx sensors that the FF struggle to meet . Don they suit your requirements more head on?

Agreed.  And while I have no issue with the my S1R's performance, having moved away from MF during the film era, I am now shifting gears and have ordered a large sensor MF camera, but will continue to use and enjoy the Panasonic.

[Donzo98]

37 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Don, good question. As stated above, thighslapper uses Bracketing. Therefore, it’s not a issue for him. Depending on what you shoot, probably also rarely for you the way you pose the question. For me, this is important. After the M240 and with the introduction by Sony of a BSI sensor in the α7R II, FF users have been getting more and more spoiled with amazingly malleable files that approach MF performance of the X1D sensor (not quite for DR and color sensitivity, I know).

Heck, the CL is incredible in this respect. The first thing I check when I get a camera is its DR and the malleability of its files. See how the CL does in the first two shots here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-N7zNRh/

When I saw the low-light performance of the CL, I thought ‘amazing for an APS-C camera.’ No wonder Jaap bought it right away. The S1R, with regards to this, takes us back to the age of the M240, I’m afraid. We have been spoiled. There is no way that we will go back to the FF stone-age.

I do a fair amount shadow sliding too... but my exposure is NEVER as badly underexposed than either of your examples.

It is an eye opener though to read your posts... very interesting.

[scott kirkpatrick]

59 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

There is a huge diff between those 2... but how often is that kind of correction needed??

It can't be often.  Someone mentioned that Thighslapper always runs a bracket, so perhaps his example of sun under clouds and over shadow was the extreme bracked.  I reviewed my files from the same locations and couldn't find anything as wide (and in wide intensity scenes, like a sunset, I exposed for the midtones, not the highlights).

[thighslapper]

39 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

Trying to use new high resolution cameras in a casual way invariably gives me, well, casual looking shots and casual looking image quality.

Correct. And you choose and use a tool for your specific needs and to the maximum potential of its benefits, not its weaknesses. 

........ and try as I might I still haven't found an S1R image I've taken with colour or other banding when viewed in LR on an iMac. 

[lct]

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57 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

[...] When I saw the low-light performance of the CL, I thought ‘amazing for an APS-C camera.’ No wonder Jaap bought it right away. The S1R, with regards to this, takes us back to the age of the M240, I’m afraid. We have been spoiled. There is no way that we will go back to the FF stone-age

I like much the digital CL but your nice pics of the Xmas market have been shot a 400 iso IINW. At 3200 iso, i'm not sure it would do better than the S1R to be honest. Did you do comparos at 3200 iso between those two cameras? Just curious as 3200 iso is one of my most used settings for low light and i would not say that the CL is noiseless there by far. BTW i'm not trying to defend the S1R here, it is too big for my taste, but with a bit of noise reduction it still retains more details than the SL with no NR unless i'm missing something

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[Chaemono]

The blue banding of the S1R in the lower right corner of the pic in #252 was understandably ignored. We are not talking extreme situation here. This is vs. the CL with both cameras at base ISO 100. The banding with the S1R basically occurs whenever Shadows need to be lifted by 100 in order to recover detail and then Exposure is increased a bit, to +1.35 in the picture below.

As a reminder, less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/. Frankly, it's a bit embarrassing how much cleaner the OOF area of CL image is, not to speak of the treatment of Highlight on the yellow purse.

The RAW files are in #251.

S1R

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CL

 

S1R - see the blue banding in the lower right corner? Shadows +100, Exposure +1.35

 

CL

Edited September 15, 2019 by Chaemono

[Donzo98]

S1R + 50 APO SL @ F2.0

Shadows +100, Exposure +1.35... cropped... as well as other things. NO NR.

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[Chaemono]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

S1R + 50 APO SL @ F2.0

Shadows +100, Exposure +1.35... cropped... as well as other things. NO NR.

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😁 I don’t have a dog to recreate your experiment, Don. But maybe you can find a scene where some viewable detail is completely hidden in black when you photograph it. Ideally, choose a scene with a light source, a lamp for example, and expose for that lamp. Then lift Shadows by 100 and adjust Exposure so that the picture is sufficiently bright. See what happens in the areas that were totally dark but contain some viewable detail. 

[Donzo98]

1 minute ago, Chaemono said:

😁 I don’t have a dog to recreate your experiment, Don. But maybe you can find a scene where some viewable detail is completely hidden in black when you photograph it. Ideally, choose a scene with a light source, a lamp for example, and expose for that lamp. Then lift Shadows by 100 and adjust Exposure so that the picture is sufficiently bright. See what happens in the areas that were totally dark but contain some viewable detail. 

No... I don't want to I wanted to see if my style of shooting and processing would show an issue...

[ron777]

Attempting to recover detail from the dimmest of shadows or darkest regions of a poorly exposed photo should be reserved for forensic photographers.

I don't understand your apparent obsession with noise and shadows.  As has been stated, cameras are tools, we should choose the correct tool for the task at hand. If an APS-C or m/43 sensor gets you where you wish to go, then stick with what works for you.  Just as you wouldn't try to squeeze juice from a rock, why do you persist in demeaning the S1R ... we get it, you're a Leica man through and through, end of story.  For some of, or perhaps many of us, the S1R performs flawlessly, and banding—a more frequent issue with PDAF sensors—has not been observed, nor has noise been a bothersome issue.  Time to move on.

Edited September 15, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

It simple, Ron, the S1 recovers Shadow detail with ease, so does the CL, the S1R don’t. The question is why? Cheepo sensor in order to be able to price the S1R at $3K?

[Donzo98]

1 minute ago, ron777 said:

Attempting to recover detail from the dimmest of shadows or darkest regions of a photo should be reserved for forensic photographers.

I don't understand your apparent obsession with noise and shadows.  As has been stated, cameras are tools, we should choose the correct tool for the task at hand. If an APS-C or m/43 sensor gets you where you wish to go, then stick with what works for you.  Just as you wouldn't try to squeeze juice from a rock, why do you persist in demeaning the S1R ... we get it, you're a Leica man through and through, end of story.  For some of, or perhaps many of us, the S1R performs flawlessly, and banding—a more frequent issue with PDAF sensors—has not been observed, nor has noise been a bothersome issue.  Time to move on.

Yeah... I agree.

I understand if you badly need a shot, and have no other choice to expose that way... but in most cases you just choose to expose differently.

 

[peterv]

Lots of preoccupation with noise, but maybe I am missing something.

Chaemono, are you saying that if you severely underexpose an already dark area (which is already about three stops under medium gray) and then lift it from obscure oblivion in Lightroom by pumping the shadows up to 100 and then bring your exposure slider up to 1.35, you see noise and banding? How strange! 

Maybe I misunderstand, and maybe it would be more helpful if you could just post some screenshots at 100 percent to prove your point. Perhaps that would be easier to see then downloading raw files from some link somewhere.

Cheers, Peter

[Donzo98]

Just now, Chaemono said:

It simple, Ron, the S1 recovers Shadow detail with ease, so does the CL, the S1R don’t. The question is why? Cheepo sensor in order to be able to price the S1R at $3K?

The S1R recovers Shadow detail well too... in ALMOST all reasonable cases. Your examples are very extreme.

[ron777]

Precisely.  I sure that we could create a scenario that would hobble the best Phase One sensor.

[ron777]

5 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

It simple, Ron, the S1 recovers Shadow detail with ease, so does the CL, the S1R don’t. The question is why? Cheepo sensor in order to be able to price the S1R at $3K?

 

That same CHEAPO sensor is inside of the Q2, or have you forgotten.

But from a practical viewpoint, proper exposure will or should negate the need for such extreme manipulation. 

Edited September 15, 2019 by ron777

[Donzo98]

2 minutes ago, peterv said:

Lots of preoccupation with noise, but maybe I am missing something.

Chaemono, are you saying that if you severely underexpose an already dark area (which is already about three stops under medium gray) and then lift it from obscure oblivion in Lightroom by pumping the shadows up to 100 and then bring your exposure slider up to 1.35, you see noise and banding? How strange! 

Maybe I misunderstand, and maybe it would be more helpful if you could just post some screenshots at 100 percent to prove your point. Perhaps that would be easier to see then downloading raw files from some link somewhere.

Cheers, Peter

That's exactly what he is saying ... and the reason why I don't see it as an issue.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[ron777]

During my 60year photographic journey from film to digital, I have never been tempted to acquire an image under the experimental  circumstances that you've posed.  Real world imaging rarely, aside from war time photographers or newsies, compels one to aim their lens at a scene lit as you have proposed.  But if it were to be deemed necessary, exposure bracketing and layering might save the day.

Anyway, I see the entire issue as moot.  You posed the question as to why the S1 does a better job with this type of lighting or lack thereof?  Perhaps it is related to physics, and the larger pixels in the 24mp sensor but, frankly, I don't really care.  I require the detail afforded by the larger sensor, you work in the shadows ... each to his own.

Edited September 15, 2019 by ron777