"Vader" Certainly Isn't Any Prettier

[sillbeers15]

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4 hours ago, Chaemono said:

You purchased a used M8 just for this shot and a second to follow...because it’s waterproof or because if it fell in the water you wouldn’t care so much? 😁 And I thought I was a crazy son of a gun. I purchased the 75 Noctilux-M just for one shot. Still waiting for a second good shot with it to bring the average cost down. 😂

I was prepared to loose the camera and lens in the process of the shoot as the camera had to take the splashes. But the camera and lens survived till today.

I once placed my tripod plunged the legs in shallow water to position my M240 an inch above water in the dark ( just before 1st light) with my M21Lux for the landscape shot,...but I preyed not loosing my camera and lens than.

[BernardC]

9 hours ago, not12bhere said:

Well, based only on the alleged pics of the SL2, it appears to be yet another evolutionary vs. revolutionary update

The SL completely redefined the mirrorless market. Sony had to play catch-up with their A9, and the rest of the industry is just reacting now, after 4 years. Did you expect Leica to turn their back on a design that has been very successful, and envied by the whole camera industry?

Why should they abandon their SL customers with a completely different design?

I understand that many people here claim that they would buy an SL/M hybrid, and maybe that's coming some day. The SL replacement, however, is a completely different camera, sharing only a lens mount (and perhaps battery) with this future camera.

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[Chaemono]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb sillbeers15:

I was prepared to loose the camera and lens in the process of the shoot as the camera had to take the splashes. But the camera and lens survived till today.

I once placed my tripod plunged the legs in shallow water to position my M240 an inch above water in the dark ( just before 1st light) with my M21Lux for the landscape shot,...but I preyed not loosing my camera and lens than.

No sweat. It makes sense. I'm comparing the S1 and the S1R side by side this weekend but I'm too lazy to change lenses. So, I have two copies of the same lens. 😁 

Let's get the good news about that 47 MPx FSI sensor that is allegedly in the SL2 but hopefully not (I really prey that Leica went with a Sony sensor for the SL2) out of the way first. Because Panasonic folks are smart cookies, ISO 3200 noise of the S1R is acceptable, I'd say. Really clever algorithms clean up the files and, hence, a DxOMark score of 100 for that 47 MPx sensor. 👏 Leica folks don't have the same software capabilities, it seems, and the same sensor gets a DxOMark score of only 96 in the Q2. But this where the good news for that TowerJazz sensor ends (I'm pretty sure from the way it behaves it's from TowerJazz). But because Panasonic folks are even smarter cookies than we think, they went with a BSI Sony sensor (likely the IMX410CQK-C) for the S1. And that 24 MPx sensor beats the pants off the S1R for DR and malleability of files (something really important in high contrast scenes). No wonder that Jono reviewed the S1 (with a Sony sensor) instead of the S1R. And he gave the S1 back and is looking forward to the SL2. Go figure, that son of a gun.

Below are two unprocessed shots at base ISO in something of a high contrast scene (the best I could find this morning). I know this is an extreme example but to paraphrase Thomas Paine 'Extreme examples try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in the face of them, shrink from the service of their user forum; but he that looks at it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Bad sensors, like hell, are not easily conquered (especially those where the RAW files are cooked well); yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the comparison, the more glorious the triumph (for the superior sensor). What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value, including the SL2.'

Trivia question: Which file represented by the JPEGs below contains a somewhat usable photo if the following adjustments in LR are applied: Exposure +5, Highlights -40, Shadows +100, NR +40, LR default sharpening?

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/8 @1/20 sec.)

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S1 + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/8 @1/20 sec.)

 

 

Edited September 14, 2019 by Chaemono

[Chaemono]

And here the answer. First, in form of less compressed JPEGs: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

Tons of color banding anyone? S1R + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/8 @1/20 sec.) - link to DNG: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g74738138-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=jMD4BorhZexML4foA97HMcv_P_BjsmaZk3q1BTPSGZ4=

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 100 f/8 @1/20 sec.) - link to DNG download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g151243381-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=rsmPKhNNzFwuMF0uXYXae0VYmhF87mwUqfknQqZ-vgk=

[BernardC]

A note on "professionals."

Disclaimer: I am not a full-time professional, but some of the most successful professionals in my little corner of the world trust me to deliver photographs that complement and enhance their own work. That being said, I do it for personal fulfillment rather than income (which mostly cost-recovery honestly).

Other than landscape shooters, and a few high-end fashion shooters, "professionals" don't want or need high megapixel counts. Most photography is consumed on screens these days. Professionals also rarely crop (although their photos are trimmed to fit a layout), and they rarely need to recover shadows that are 5 stops down.

What they want is reliability, support, responsiveness, a consistent interface, compatibility with their workflow (RAW processing, but also tethering, flash, etc). Some also need the ability to rent a piece of gear for specific jobs.

The L-Mount alliance is a huge improvement there, compared to having a one-camera "system," but obviously Nikon and Canon are far ahead in 35mm, as are Phase One and Hasselblad in medium format. They have years of consistent interfaces, making it easy to switch between camera models, and they have solid professional support.

The new SL will do better with professionals, because it fits in a bigger system. The SL primes will definitely be successful; they "pop" even in small images. While many here don't care about video, many professionals do because it lets them bid on more jobs. I wouldn't use an SL (or S1, or fp) if I shot video exclusively. That's what real professional video cameras are for. That being said, SLRs with video capabilities are very good for the occasional moving image that will end-up on social media.

 

[Mr.Q]

Sorry but what do pro's have to do with this discussion? I could care less what they want or need tbh.

[ron777]

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S

14 minutes ago, BernardC said:

A note on "professionals."

Disclaimer: I am not a full-time professional, but some of the most successful professionals in my little corner of the world trust me to deliver photographs that complement and enhance their own work. That being said, I do it for personal fulfillment rather than income (which mostly cost-recovery honestly).

Other than landscape shooters, and a few high-end fashion shooters, "professionals" don't want or need high megapixel counts. Most photography is consumed on screens these days. Professionals also rarely crop (although their photos are trimmed to fit a layout), and they rarely need to recover shadows that are 5 stops down.

What they want is reliability, support, responsiveness, a consistent interface, compatibility with their workflow (RAW processing, but also tethering, flash, etc). Some also need the ability to rent a piece of gear for specific jobs.

The L-Mount alliance is a huge improvement there, compared to having a one-camera "system," but obviously Nikon and Canon are far ahead in 35mm, as are Phase One and Hasselblad in medium format. They have years of consistent interfaces, making it easy to switch between camera models, and they have solid professional support.

The new SL will do better with professionals, because it fits in a bigger system. The SL primes will definitely be successful; they "pop" even in small images. While many here don't care about video, many professionals do because it lets them bid on more jobs. I wouldn't use an SL (or S1, or fp) if I shot video exclusively. That's what real professional video cameras are for. That being said, SLRs with video capabilities are very good for the occasional moving image that will end-up on social media.

 

Sir, I believe that you have overlooked a large sector of fine art photographers, for whom detail, and thus high MP sensors, are beneficial.  You make the assumption that "most photography is viewed on screens," and by this I assume that you are referring to computer monitors, cellphones and tablets, and if that were the case, the entire camera industry would be forced to kneel to the army of existing cellphones, and so-called cellphone photographers.  Apparently, you have not made any recent visits to the photographic art galleries located around the world.  So, yes, many fine art, architectural, landscape and product photographers feature their work on the Internet via their websites, but that is primarily for demonstrative purposes and is likely not their chosen medium.

In response to Chaemono's test, I applaud your efforts but question its practicality. I have been shooting with the S1R for the past 6 months, under all manner of available lighting conditions—none as extreme as in your test—and have never encountered the color banding that you've depicted. (All PP performed in C1 Ver 12).

[ron777]

9 minutes ago, Mr.Q said:

Sorry but what do pro's have to do with this discussion? I could care less what they want or need tbh.

So in your mind amateurs rule and professionals need not apply?

A professional can be defined as anyone who has been paid, on any occasion, for their work.

[Chaemono]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb ron777:

In response to Chaemono's test, I applaud your efforts but question its practicality. I have been shooting with the S1R for the past 6 months, under all manner of available lighting conditions—none as extreme as in your test—and have never encountered the color banding that you've depicted. (All PP performed in C1 Ver 12).

Yes, absolutely, I need to find high contrast scenes with more practicality. As I said, it’s the best I could do this morning and I posted it to try our souls. 

[BernardC]

 

1 minute ago, ron777 said:

Sir, I believe that you have overlooked a large sector of fine art photographers, for whom detail, and thus high MP sensors, are beneficial.

I did mention several medium format cameras, and I am well aware that we are currently at the tail end of a "big is better" phase in fine art prints (print sizes are cyclical, and have been for centuries).

The fine-art photographers I follow either shoot medium format or large format. Not much to do with the SL.

One fine art photographer that I know quite well told me that he analyzed recent acquisitions of contemporary work, and much of it was shot on film. It sounds surprising, but oil paint is also a technically obsolete medium, isn't it?

That being said, I don't think that fine art photographers represent enough of a market force to influence any mainstream camera maker. For all we know, cutting-edge photographers may have moved back to blurry/grainy/high impact small prints already.

[Donzo98]

20 minutes ago, ron777 said:

So in your mind amateurs rule and professionals need not apply?

A professional can be defined as anyone who has been paid, on any occasion, for their work.

I traded a pic of a restaurant for a lunch... I'm a professional

[ron777]

1 minute ago, BernardC said:

 

I did mention several medium format cameras, and I am well aware that we are currently at the tail end of a "big is better" phase in fine art prints (print sizes are cyclical, and have been for centuries).

The fine-art photographers I follow either shoot medium format or large format. Not much to do with the SL.

One fine art photographer that I know quite well told me that he analyzed recent acquisitions of contemporary work, and much of it was shot on film. It sounds surprising, but oil paint is also a technically obsolete medium, isn't it?

That being said, I don't think that fine art photographers represent enough of a market force to influence any mainstream camera maker. For all we know, cutting-edge photographers may have moved back to blurry/grainy/high impact small prints already.

The purchasing public, the people who buy the prints, giclee, etc, look for large representations, not 4"x5".  They want something that is suitable for wall hanging, and many of these large representations can be found in offices, the lobbies of commercial buildings, restaurants and homes around the world.  I agree that many fine art photogs use MF cameras, but high MP FF is being employed as well, given their ability to produce large, quality prints.

[ron777]

7 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

I traded a pic of a restaurant for a lunch... I'm a professional

Exactly, meets the definition, and I had done the same—sans the free meal—on one occasion with a framed, 16"x24" photo of a Napa Valley restaurant. However, some might argue that selling, or bartering one photo does not a professional make.  But who cares.  I do care, however, when an open forum member suggests the exclusion of, or lack of concern for a particular sector of the contributing, photographic population.

Edited September 14, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

vor 7 Minuten schrieb Donzo98:

I traded a pic of a restaurant for a lunch... I'm a professional

It only counts if you do it for profit. A homeless person may work for food. That makes you somewhat of a homeless person, I’d say. 😁

Edited September 14, 2019 by Chaemono

[ron777]

Actually, trading an item of value for something of greater value can be considered a taxable transaction, and as such, the difference can be deemed profit, at least in the USA.  A homeless individual working for food is generally not considered as such, since the reverse is often true ... the work performed may be of greater value than the food received, but of course, that would depend upon the food received (a half eaten sandwich does not count) and the quality and quantity of work (LOL).

Edited September 14, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb ron777:

Actually, trading an item of value for something of greater value can be considered a taxable transaction, and as such, the difference can be deemed profit, at least in the USA.  A homeless individual working for food is generally not considered as such, since the reverse is often true ... the work performed may be of greater value than the food received,...

Perfect. You make the same point. Don is more like a homeless individual. He doesn’t need to declare the lunch as taxable income...unless it was lobster and caviar. But even then it would be a close call, I think. 

[Donzo98]

25 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Perfect. You make the same point. Don is more like a homeless individual. He doesn’t need to declare the lunch as taxable income...unless it was lobster and caviar. But even then it would be a close call, I think. 

I will only be homeless if I buy the SL2

The S1R allows me to stay one more month...

[ron777]

11 minutes ago, Donzo98 said:

I will only be homeless if I buy the SL2

The S1R allows me to stay one more month...

Hilariously funny.

Edited September 14, 2019 by ron777

[Chaemono]

We all seem to be in a good mood so let’s show something funny. Links to download the RAW files are provided. The fact is, the 47 MPx S1R sensor is not made for recovering Shadow detail, unless one likes lots of color banding.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

The starting point is this.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

 

And when one lifts the Shadows by 100 and tries to match Exposure, the following shows.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +2, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g12473015-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=2i_h81Fwq6FrKwPzdxGkiWi5jJ_FPhRf3oy1IsH_Azs=

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +1.5, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g411393211-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=HTLkk34XTX0muyA5qEkYLtx8NPpDHiBY--XbH6wZBTo=

Edited September 14, 2019 by Chaemono

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[ron777]

6 minutes ago, Chaemono said:

Let's show something funny because we all seem to be in a good mood. Links to download the RAW files are provided. The fact is, the 47 MPx S1R sensor is not made for recovering Shadow detail, unless one likes lots of color banding.

Less compressed JPEGs here: https://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-zZCDLz/

 

The starting point is this.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL (ISO 3200 f/4 @1/40 sec.)

 

And when one lifts the Shadows by 100 and tries to match Exposure, the following shows.

S1R + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +2, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g12473015-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=2i_h81Fwq6FrKwPzdxGkiWi5jJ_FPhRf3oy1IsH_Azs=

 

S1 + 50 Summicron-SL, Exposure +1.5, Highlights -66, Shadows +100, default LR sharpening - link to RW2 file download: https://cc2032.zenfolio.com/img/g411393211-o750076470.dat?dl=2&tk=HTLkk34XTX0muyA5qEkYLtx8NPpDHiBY--XbH6wZBTo=

An unlikely scenario. Sorry, not funny. 

Edited September 14, 2019 by ron777