Survey AE-/AF-Lock Handling

[wlaidlaw]

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36 minutes ago, jonoslack said:

Fine - but I've seen requests for all sorts of different variants, and at least with my solution (I think) they're all covered. 

Jono, 

The centre buttons on both rollers already have useful assigned functions for long and short presses as follows: L Short: Select change Camera Mode to left roller. L Long: Variables lock toggle on/off.  R Short: Assigned variable function to right roller e.g. ISO. R Long: Select Assigned Function for short press. Using one of those four for AE or AF lock, would mean losing one of the four existing and useful functions. That is why I opted to use the centre button on the joystick, as at present with an AF lens mounted, that has just one function - short press to change screen layout, a long press not being used. So by changing the existing function to a long press, you would be freeing up an unused function button with a short press. I don't think the CL firmware permits a double press function like the SL buttons do. 

Wilson

Edited July 5, 2019 by wlaidlaw

[Leica Guy]

16 hours ago, marchyman said:

The options presented don't quite match the way I would like to use the Q. Or perhaps I'm reading them wrong.   My preferred option would have the camera keep focusing while the button is pressed and lock focus when the button is released.  In single shot mode press and release.   Press and hold is useful for continuous shooting. That lets you track something while shooting with occasional releases if your subject moves behind something that would cause a focus shift.  My Canon works this way so I am used to it.

I want focus separate from exposure.  The Q lets me do that.   Position camera and press/release back button to lock focus,  Re-position camera and half press the shutter button to lock exposure.   Frame the shot and press the shutter completely to take the picture.   I have no need for a focus unlock.   I can always hit the back button again if I want to refocus.

Exactly what Marchyman said and he said it much better than me. That’s exactly how my Canon 5D3 has been setup for years. It works great in all kinds of situations. 

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[Ty Joubert]

The Q disappoints me. Why not fix the on/off button first. It's a disaster moving too easily changing from on to off, or S to C without recognition. Never had the problem with my other cameras. The other issue is the Leica Q case - - an absolute ridiculous design. Deep screw with sharp edges, pad turns camera on when closing, no accommodation for the hood. Ahghhhh!!!! Makes me crazy.

[bsmith]

It should work as a pro Nikon or Canon camera. 

When activating tear af button , the af on the front shutter button should be disconnected. 

Then holding the rear button in should af the camera lens.  When it is released , the focus should stay frozen until the rear AF button is pushed again.

( just like a Q1 )

[scott kirkpatrick]

@jonoslack

You've got (AE, AF or AE+AF) to be assigned to shutter button and/or one other button.  Then a general option to make all of them (hold or one-shot) -- there must be someone out there who want some things to be hold and other things to be one-shot, but let's ignore him.  You made a step in the direction of saying that things could be customized differently for each of the P A S and M modes - are you backing away from that?  What we have on the SL is one-shot AF on the joystick and AE/AF on the shutter button, with the result that the joystick AF is overridden  in any AF mode and is effective in manual focus. Putting AE on the joystick doesn't default as neatly, so the next step may have to be something as exhaustive as you suggest.  I think it may be necessary to have different options for PAS and for M to make it all work.

Edited July 5, 2019 by scott kirkpatrick

[dfdann]

I agree with all who desire focus and exposure lock separate. Also one more

plea for stopping wandering focus!!!  I did not vote for any of options in

the survey as I don’t think they address the real problem most of us have with 

the CL. 

Dan

[scott kirkpatrick]

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On 7/3/2019 at 3:54 PM, jaapv said:

...please-please do something about the CL wandering focus point!!!

Isn't that a result of having a four-way button pad instead of a joystick?  I lose the focus point on my SL sometimes, but MUCH less often.  So not really a firmware fix, unless we go down the path of selectively disabling things, rather than having just the stupid "lock everything" button.  There might be some things down that path that I would +1 with you on.

[Bobster]

Back button focusing is the goal.  One press of a button should lock focus until the button is pressed again.  On my Canon EOS 5D Mk. IV I have separate buttons to lock focus and to lock exposure.  If I had to compromise to one button, it would be to lock focus.  I could then set exposure with a half press of the shutter and recompose.  The problem with the Leica CL and Q2 is the limited landscape of available buttons.  On the CL Leica should allow an option for the right wheel button to serve as a focus lock.  It is easy enough to re-select IOS as an option, reset it and return to a focus lock dedication.  On the Q2 the so called digital zoom (which is just a pre-cropping selection) button can already be set to lock focus.  However, it is a joke to assume you can continuously hold that button down, adjust ECV and press the shutter.  That is so awkward (and the button is so small).  It needs to have the option of being set to a focus lock (without depressing the button).

On your survey you combine both exposure lock and focus lock into one choice.  Try again with those being separated out.  I realize you have an option question, which is what I selected, but it is ambiguous. 

[wlaidlaw]

3 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Isn't that a result of having a four-way button pad instead of a joystick?  I lose the focus point on my SL sometimes, but MUCH less often.  So not really a firmware fix, unless we go down the path of selectively disabling things, rather than having just the stupid "lock everything" button.  There might be some things down that path that I would +1 with you on.

At least on the CL a double tap on the LCD screen centres the focus. When I go back to the SL, I keep double tapping it before I remember that doesn't work. 

Wilson

[Tim B]

9 hours ago, jonoslack said:

Fine - but I've seen requests for all sorts of different variants, and at least with my solution (I think) they're all covered. 

Agreed - I think you've covered all bases. Thanks for your concise summary.

Tim

[LocalHero1953]

Like others, I've already got useful functions assigned to the soft buttons on the CL, and I don't want to lose them.
I don't assign a list of functions to the soft buttons either - it's too complicated and I can't remember what's on each button.

I think the only firmware solution for me on the current CL would be to abandon the whole notion of a separate long press menu of items on the soft buttons altogether. And then allow these soft buttons to have short and long press functions, like the SL (making cameras work in similar ways would be revolutionary for Leica).

The short press funtions should be simple one-step triggers, such as back-button AF, focus point recentre, back-button AE etc. The long press items would be things that require further adjustment, like setting ISO, choosing a user profile, or PASM switching.

But I can hear the screams now coming from all those who use the soft buttons for a long list of functions each......

[danielmfrank]

I voted for "both", but I actually prefer a third option:

When I used to do professional work on Nikon bodies, I had them set up so the autofocus was activated when I pressed the AF button. When I let go of the button, focus stayed set, unless I manually turned the focus ring. I left exposure lock tied to a half-press-and-hold of the shutter button.

So AF wasn't a focus lock button, it was a "focus now" button. I found working with autofocus that way really fluid. Plus, focus-and-recompose didn't mess up the matrix metering, which can be a problem when you tie focus and exposure together. I think it's slightly different than what Jono seemed to be suggesting in the survey, which I read as "press once to lock focus, then once more to cancel." It's much easier to just press the button once each time you want to refocus, and you don't have to keep track of whether to press it once or twice, which is the downside of a modal control.

This behavior is in keeping with using the rangefinder on the Leica M (as opposed to using hyperfocal distance or estimating), where you set focus first, then use the half-press of the shutter button to lock exposure (meter-and-recompose) if necessary before you shoot.

Because of the Q2 controls design, this would only work when the focus ring was set to AF, so you couldn't mix autofocus and manual focus as fluidly as I could on the Nikon. But it would still be a big improvement over what's available today. (And I absolutely wouldn't change anything about the Q2 controls design!) This option could likely be added with a firmware change.

 

Edited July 5, 2019 by danielmfrank
Clarification about the relationship to the survey question.

[MarkinVan]

On SL2, as SL, plus magnification programable to TR button near joystick.

Perfection!

[Leica Guy]

Part of the issue is whether you have AF-C selected or AF-S

I would suggest that the simple answer is when in AF-S mode, a push of the button locks focus. In AF-C, a release of the button locks focus, but it is continuously seeking focus while the button is pushed. 

My Canon DSLR operates exactly this way and it has worked well for me for a decade. I leave the camera in servo focus mode (AF-C). I often photograph wildlife and there can be a lot of distracting elements around which confuses focus. Separating focus activation allows me to hunt for an accurate focus then leave it locked while I recompose and take the shot. 

[beauport]

On 7/3/2019 at 9:15 AM, iQ2 said:

I would not have worded the survey in the same way. I would have said a second push saves a new focus and exposure. I also agree with separating the focus and exposure. Having a button push lock focus would work best for me. 

+ !

[AKW]

On 7/6/2019 at 2:52 AM, danielmfrank said:

I voted for "both", but I actually prefer a third option:

When I used to do professional work on Nikon bodies, I had them set up so the autofocus was activated when I pressed the AF button. When I let go of the button, focus stayed set, unless I manually turned the focus ring. I left exposure lock tied to a half-press-and-hold of the shutter button.

So AF wasn't a focus lock button, it was a "focus now" button. I found working with autofocus that way really fluid. Plus, focus-and-recompose didn't mess up the matrix metering, which can be a problem when you tie focus and exposure together. I think it's slightly different than what Jono seemed to be suggesting in the survey, which I read as "press once to lock focus, then once more to cancel." It's much easier to just press the button once each time you want to refocus, and you don't have to keep track of whether to press it once or twice, which is the downside of a modal control.

This behavior is in keeping with using the rangefinder on the Leica M (as opposed to using hyperfocal distance or estimating), where you set focus first, then use the half-press of the shutter button to lock exposure (meter-and-recompose) if necessary before you shoot.

Because of the Q2 controls design, this would only work when the focus ring was set to AF, so you couldn't mix autofocus and manual focus as fluidly as I could on the Nikon. But it would still be a big improvement over what's available today. (And I absolutely wouldn't change anything about the Q2 controls design!) This option could likely be added with a firmware change.

 

+1 for the "focus now" button!

I have used it years with Canons, and I didn't  buy the SL because I couldn't find a pleasant way to use AF.

[wlaidlaw]

15 minutes ago, AKW said:

+1 for the "focus now" button!

I have used it years with Canons, and I didn't  buy the SL because I couldn't find a pleasant way to use AF.

On the SL, the joystick acts as a focus now button with the advantage you don't need to reframe, as you can position the focus frame where you want it. A push on the joystick and it focuses where you have selected - brilliant!

Wilson

[AKW]

6 minutes ago, wlaidlaw said:

On the SL, the joystick acts as a focus now button with the advantage you don't need to reframe, as you can position the focus frame where you want it. A push on the joystick and it focuses where you have selected - brilliant!

Wilson

That sounds good!  I couldn't find that option when I was test-driving it last time two years ago and the sales persons at the store couldn't guide me correctly. So, did I understood right: The joystick activates AF when it is pressed and it is continuously seeking focus? And when it is released the focus stays where it was left? And the release button has nothing to do with focussing? Maybe I have to give the SL a second chance...

[scott kirkpatrick]

That works when you are in manual focus.  The joystick takes over. and the shutter button just chooses exposure levels (if you let it).

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[wlaidlaw]

2 hours ago, AKW said:

That sounds good!  I couldn't find that option when I was test-driving it last time two years ago and the sales persons at the store couldn't guide me correctly. So, did I understood right: The joystick activates AF when it is pressed and it is continuously seeking focus? And when it is released the focus stays where it was left? And the release button has nothing to do with focussing? Maybe I have to give the SL a second chance...

You can set the joystick push to single focus or continuous. Alternatively you can fine tune with manual focus. 

Wilson